Participants:
Steve Wershing
Julie Littlechild
Eliza De Pardo
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Welcome to Becoming Referable the podcast that helps you become the kind of advisor people can’t help talking about. I’m Julie Littlechild. And today, Steve and I are talking to Eliza De Pardo, the founder and director of consulting at De Pardo Consulting. Eliza launched De Pardo Consulting after almost a decade as a co-founder and a director of FA Insight. So she brings a very unique blend of evidence and actionable advice. We’re talking to Eliza about team compensation planning, and we know this is a challenging area for advisors or for anyone really. Eliza shares some ideas on how to start thinking about compensation in a more strategic way by focusing on the behaviors we want to encourage as well as the culture that we want to cultivate. This is such an important topic for advisors who want to create a referable business. And with that, let’s get straight to the conversation with Eliza. Eliza, welcome. So happy to have you here today.
Welcome Eliza.
Julie, Steven, thanks so much for inviting me along.
Oh, well, I am excited to talk to you. The main challenge, of course, being, figuring out our time zones to get you on today. But so thank you for being so flexible on that.
Well, we should tell the listeners that Eliza is in Australia, so it’s first thing in the morning for us and evening for her.
That is true.
That’s Western Australia. So probably as far away as possible, I guess.
Lots of people feel that about me. They’d love to be as far away as possible.
Only in winter.
Yes, exactly. But look, I think a lot of our listeners and we’ll connect your name Eliza to a lot of the deep research that you’ve been doing for so many years. Although of course, you’ve been doing so many other things, but maybe we could just start there. Can you tell us a little bit more about the work that you’re doing and have done?
Sure. I’d be happy to. So for the last 12 years or so, I’ve been a co-author of the FA Insight research. I co-founded the firm with Daniel Inveen all those years ago. And over the years we’ve explored pretty much every area of advisory firm performance. And every second year we spend a lot of time in human capital and we look very closely at compensation planning. We alternated that with what we call growth by design, which is understanding how firms achieve sustainable growth and looking at marketing and operations, technology, all sorts of things. And also, back of that research, we of course, we’re able to utilize the data to be able to consult directly with advisory firms. And typically, we consult with larger advisory firms and I continue to do that today as De Pardo consulting, but a great deal of the work that I do as a consultant is in strategic growth planning and helping business owners, shareholder groups, to figure out how they’re going to grow, how they’ll differentiate, how they’re going to compete, what they’re going to be known for in the market.
But oftentimes that work leads to much needed guidance around human capital. Obviously with people being very much the leading indicator of success for any business. And as a result of that, so much of the work that I consult in is in organizational design and compensation planning. We really find these are areas where firms really get so challenged to work through some of the very intricate challenges that they experience.
And so, I mean, I said compensation planning, but I guess, more broadly human capital is probably the appropriate term here. And at some level, it seems obvious what we’re talking about, but there’s a lot included under that umbrella. Can you sort of talk us through the components of that that firms are really looking at?
Yeah. As it relates to human capital, it really runs the gamut. So oftentimes it’s really hard to make smart decisions in the area of compensation. If you haven’t thought about your organizational design and if you haven’t clearly defined the roles within your firm to then be able to figure out how to compensate. And if you take a step back from there, those decisions are often quite difficult to make without a clear strategy. So if we don’t know where we’re going, it can be very challenging to figure out what is the best structure for our team? What are the roles that make the most sense for us to sit at the types of clients that we want to serve and to try and grow the business, to the extent that we seek to create scale? So all of these pieces are interrelated and beyond organizational design and compensation is of course the big issues around performance management, and of course, business succession transitioning ownership is always a challenge for firms as well.
So, the human capital area itself requires sort of attention in so many areas, but there’s kind of a linear approach to it. Even though sometimes for firm owners, it’s kind of hard to take a step back and to think about, well, what do we need to do first before we jump on, for example compensation?
Right. Yeah. I can see. So I can imagine a lot of people coming to you and thinking they have a compensation issue and you need to start 10 steps back. Is there that first key area that you almost always get back to starting with?
Yeah, generally it does depend in some cases on how far advanced the business is, but strategy’s always a great place to start if you’ve got the appetite to do it, if you’ve got the discipline to do it. Organizational design is a very natural next step. And what I mean by that in particular, as it relates to compensation is you really need to be very clear on how you define the roles within your business, what the accountabilities are? Kind of the buckets of accountability, because you can’t do apples to apples comparisons with industry benchmarking data, if you don’t know what the accountabilities are that you’re comparing to. So I always encourage firms to do that groundwork around creating role clarity. And that means documented job descriptions, understanding where some team members might be fulfilling dual roles, and you might need to combine position descriptions and then combine the compensation data in order to come up with what is a fair and reasonable way of compensating a team member.
So they’re great places to start. But then in addition to that, I would say, as it relates to compensation, the very first step that I encourage firms to take, once they’re down that path is to think through their compensation philosophy. And that means bringing together the executive team. If you’ve got more than one business owner, you need to be collectively coming together to think through what are our beliefs around compensation? What are some of the principles that we’re going to apply to the compensation plan that we can apply consistently? So every time we add new talent, we’re not trying to figure this stuff out all over again, if that makes sense.
And so, when you talk about human capital and role descriptions and compensation planning and those kinds of things, a lot of people may get the impression that you’re talking really specifically to larger firms, but is that the case or what kinds of firms should be concerned about this?
It’s a really great question. And I think just because some of these larger firms have created a lot of complexity in the way that they compensate team members, as a grown headcount, the plans obviously oftentimes become more complicated and they tend to need more hands-on support. However, if you’re a developing firm, perhaps you’re at early stages of developments, maybe you’ve only got a half a million in revenue, that’s a great time to be thinking about how to pay people in a really structured way, how to adjust compensation in a very formal way so that as you hire, you’re not blowing out your pay scale, you’re not creating economic challenges for your business, because you’ve figured out using benchmarking data, how are we going to consistently adjust compensation each year? Incentive compensation is incredibly valuable, but very few based on our research, very few small firms use incentive compensation. I think it’s an amazing opportunity for small firms and large firms to do better as it relates to the use of incentive pay.
So I guess the point is, if you can understand the principles of compensation as you’re a developing firm in your early years, that’s going to set you up really, really well as you grow. And you’re less likely to have a miss-step as you’re adding headcount and really creating scale in your firm.
You mentioned a half million in revenue. Is that a bit of a tipping point that you see or does that even exist?
Yeah. So in the FA Insight research, those generating under $500,000, we would call the operators. And generally they’ve got a headcount total of two, maybe 2.5, which includes an owner and some support staff likely to be client services managers. As you get to the next stage of development, the cultivator stage, which is 500 to 1.5 million as we define it at FA Insight, you’re starting to add headcount, the headcount increases to five, and you’re starting to add different types of positions. So the associate advisor, as an example, joins the ranks during that period of development that cultivator stage. And so you need to start thinking differently about how you structure compensation, because the way you pay an associate advisor, the types of performance objectives you set is going to look different to the way in which you might compensate an administration assistant or a client services manager. So that’s why I think it’s a great time to start thinking in a more advanced way about your compensation practices, the way you define roles, the way you set performance objectives. I think it makes a whole lot of sense at that stage.
Can we talk about incentive compensation for just a minute, because I think this is I think of a big area where a lot of especially smaller and mid-size firms can really learn about this. So many firms, basically compensate as a proportion of assets or revenue that an advisor brings in. And sometimes they’ll talk about, “This is your share of your production,” or something like that. And I’m thinking if you’re thinking about an organization development perspective that talking about your production is not as not a productive perspective on that. Can you give us your thoughts about that and if there are better ways of doing that, what they might be?
Sure. So incentive pay is certainly the most challenging component of compensation for firms to get right. And what we know from the research is that on average incentive pay accounts for just 11% of total compensation across all positions. So there’s a lot of opportunity for firms to use incentive pay to their advantage. As it relates to how you structure incentive pay, you’re right, a lot of firms will kind of default to some sort of percentage of revenue or they’ll link it to net new assets. The key to getting the most out of any investment you make an incentive pay is figuring out for each role, what are the behaviors you’re really trying to motivate? What are the things we need to absolutely discourage? Because there can be some unintended consequences in an incentive plan if you’re not really paying close attention. So as an example, a client services associate who is very, very close to dealing with clients and understanding in a very direct way where the business is doing really well in terms of service delivery and the client experience. And they also see where the firm is not doing well.
So you might decide as a business owner that well for our client services managers, we’re going to have them focus on client satisfaction, client retention, and we’re going to do that by asking them to perform above and beyond their role job description and contribute to special initiatives within the business around the client experience. So you might create performance objectives or pay them as an example, a percentage of base pay for being able to contribute to the development of your client experience. You might want to redesign your onboarding experience for new clients to really enhance the way in which clients think and feel about the business and to increase our referral opportunities. And so, those are the roles that are close to the clients that are going to be really helpful in creating new and innovative ways of onboarding a new client.
So it’s a really simple example of how you can intake an objective, give your team member six to 12 months to complete it and pay them a percentage of base pay, which is a really simple model for those types of roles, to be able to drive the right behaviors that really connect to the firm’s strategy. As another example, an associate advisor that is focused on retention of existing relationships and servicing existing clients, you might want to focus that position very firmly on the development of new referrals from those existing clients, referral generation, increasing assets from existing clients, broadening the advice that you deliver to those existing clients, training some of the more junior support advisors or para-planners within the business. There’s so many behaviors that would be valuable to encourage through the plan. It’s just a case of identifying what are those really important drivers for your business and linking compensation to those drivers.
And you mentioned also discouraging behaviors. What would be an example of that?
In some cases you might find that a compensation plan might foster an environment of internal competition between advisors, whereby if you’re just rewarding based on revenue managed, then it means when a client comes to the firm, if an advisor maybe doesn’t even have the capacity to serve the client, right. Or perhaps there’s actually somebody else in the firm that has more of an expertise that suits that client, you might find that the business actually doesn’t necessarily do the very best for the client that that advisor hoards the clients, because they’re rewarded for what the total revenue that they’re serving, as opposed to having other advisors with perhaps more specific capabilities or more capacity handle those relationships. So that’s an example of how you might create some kind of unintended consequences internally making team members internally competitive or you might drive for example, a more transactional culture where it’s all about rewarding for brand new revenue, as opposed to retention and ongoing services. That’s not going to work out so great for the business culturally in the long term either.
So they’re the sorts of things that going back to your compensation philosophy, if you think upfront about what are our values as a business, what are we trying to encourage our teammates to do more of? And what are the things specifically that we want them to do less of, or stop doing, or avoid motivating through the compensation plan?
And you mentioned accountabilities, and I want to make sure we don’t lose that. I just think it’s such an important distinction, job description versus accountability. Can you talk us through that?
Sure. One of the easiest ways to define the job description is to really begin by outlining the buckets, the areas of accountability for a given role type and then detail step-by-step each of the accountabilities within that bucket, if you like, or that area that you’re expecting the individual to be accountable for. There’s a difference between responsible and accountable. And you want to be encouraging your team members to be entirely accountable for those areas that you define in the job description. And along with defining those accountabilities, you also want to think about providing direction to a team member on the percentage of time within a role that you expect for them to be focusing on those accountability. So you might have five key accountabilities in that position, and then you might decide, well, the first one is the most important. Perhaps we want you to focus 50% of your effort during the regular working week on that accountability.
So, as an example, the associate advisor is entirely accountable for the retention of existing relationships, growth of assets from those existing clients, generation of referrals, from those clients, the coaching and mentoring of all junior team members. And they might play a very small role in new client acquisition, okay? Because we want that role to be learning the new skills to ultimately move to a lead advisor, but we only want them to be doing that 10% of the time, because the rest of the time we need them focused squarely on retaining, servicing, and generating referrals from our existing client base. That’s a simple way of looking at. It’s all about accountability over responsibility, and be very, very clear as you define each position.
Hi, it’s Julie here, and I hope you’re enjoying today’s discussion. I just wanted to jump in and let you know about an upcoming event. And this one is all about helping you to increase referrals. On May 26th, at 4:00 PM Eastern, I’m going to examine the evolution of client referrals. I’ll share some of our most recent research on the topic for the first time and map out a tactical plan to drive referral growth. You can register at absoluteengagement.com/webinar, and we’ve included that link in the show notes as well. I hope to see you there.
And when you talk about incentives for referrals, I’d like to dig into that a little bit. So how might an incentive plan for referrals look?
Well, probably the easiest position to relate this to is the associate advisor position. So an associate advisor, as I mentioned before, is a servicing advisor accountable entirely for retaining existing relationships that are of great value to the firm, right? The associate, depending on where they’re at in their development, there might be very high expectations around referral generation, or perhaps if they’re developing, perhaps you’ll might expect a brand new associate to bring in, let’s say three to five referrals during the course of a year. And you might require those referrals to be meet a certain criteria, right? So that the target referrals, we’re not just bringing in any new client, but we have defined what our target client looks like. And you might also then, you might put in place a minimum asset level, if that’s something that’s important to your business, depending on how you charge your clients. And then introduce a percentage of revenue.
And this is an important part, a percentage of revenue only paid in year one for that referral that you’ve generated. So it might be, let’s say 20%, or perhaps up to 30%, depending on the seniority of the associate advisor, 30% of that revenue paid in year one only. And the reason it’s paid in year one only, is that we want to encourage them next year, but then to be focusing on the same outreach, the same referral generation activities and not to become too complacent by any kind of ongoing revenue that they might be able to attract. So that’s an easy way of thinking about rewarding an associate advisor, and you might do the same for a lead advisor.
I just think… Oh, go ahead.
I think that, oh, sorry, go ahead Julie.
No, no, we want to hear you.
I was going to add that, the client servicing roles can also play an incredible role in generating referrals, but their role is less direct, but they’re still incredibly important. So if they are the ones tasked with ensuring client satisfaction at every step of the way that we’re implementing our client experience, the way we’ve defined it and that we are making the clients think and feel a certain way about us at every step of the engagement with the business, the likelihood is that’s going to support our advisors in generating new referrals. And so I think it makes a whole lot of sense to think of objectives in those areas of client experience, client satisfaction, client retention, as all part of the puzzle for referral generation and reward those perhaps less, more junior positions for those contributions that they make. In my view, every single role within the business has the ability to have a dramatic impact on the success of any one client relationship. And in that way, every team member should have some access to incentive compensation that motivates the right behaviors that contribute to our overall strategic direction.
Well, you actually started going down a path that came to mind there, because I was wondering about, we talk about creating a culture of refer-ability and how we ensure everyone on a team is pulling in the same direction. But I’m also thinking about the critical importance of helping people see exactly how they contribute to some of these outcomes where they may not feel that they’re in control. Is that something that you look at as strategically for teams as well?
Absolutely. I think, as you build a strategy and actually we know this from the research that we’ve conducted, that when firms are developing a strategic plan and the FA Insight research, 76% of firms setting objectives around client satisfaction, 73% setting objectives around client retention. So we know that these are high on the list of priorities for firms as they’re strategizing, but those numbers aren’t going to materialize, the performance in these areas won’t just materialize. And I think it’s very helpful to even talk to the team and ask them how they believe their roles can impact more heavily around client satisfaction and retention and referral generation ultimately. I would encourage firms to have those conversations with team members, get the ideas from a team as to where they think they can contribute. And then you come back to them with objectives in these areas.
And I do think again, client experience and in particular kind of process refinement, coming up with innovative initiatives that can really drive the experience and make the clients think and feel a certain way about the business, because the processes are there to support the experience. I think that’s the sort of stuff that what we call non-revenue-generating roles can do incredibly well.
There’s so good stuff in there. And I really want to highlight, the whole idea, some of the things that you said that I really picked up on were everyone has a role in referrals, which I think, a lot of firms would admit to, but they don’t really understand that in that much depth and that everyone can have specific responsibilities in that area. Everyone can have incentive compensation in that area. And I also really like your comment about sort of breaking down the experience so that you’re not just concerned with client satisfaction, but you’re concerned about client satisfaction with the onboarding process and client satisfaction with other aspects of, I think, that’s so rich that you can really, you can do a lot by digging down into it and not just handling it at sort of an overall gross kind of thing.
One of the exercises that’s incredibly helpful in digging into that client experience and connecting team members to it, is to go step-by-step through the process of prospecting, to first meeting, second meeting, implementation, onboarding, and so on, review process. And ask yourself at every step of the way as a business, how do our clients think and feel about our business now at each of these steps? And ideally, what do we want them to think and feel about us as a business after we’ve taken them through the process. So what can we do to move them from where we think they are now to where we want them to be, where we are delighting our clients, and we are doing everything we can to make sure that where there’s a referral opportunity that we are getting that referral opportunity.
Yeah. Well, I mean a form of client journey mapping right, too.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But focusing very much on the emotions of the client, what is our client truly experiencing at every step? Are they nervous, to come and meet with us? Are they embarrassed about their financial affairs? What can we be doing to help them feel differently as they work with us?
Exactly. Well, you sort of raised a point and you mentioned it earlier about performance tracking. I mean, at some level, it’s interesting to hear that 73% or if I’m getting the stat right, of firms say that they’re tying comp to sat, because I can assure you 73% of them do not track set or I’d be on a beach right now and not having this conversation.
76% of firms they incorporate client satisfaction objectives in their strategic planning.
Got it. Okay.
I think that they are falling through necessarily, as you say, to be able to track client satisfaction and then make changes to their business. I think, in most cases, not the case.
Well, it’s a challenge, right? Especially when it’s not hard things like new clients or all of those things too, to not only track, but to measure performance, it starts to become subjective and it’s uncomfortable for a lot of people.
Absolutely.
It’s now, we’re talking about incentive, but it’s not always cash incentive as well. Are you seeing some creativity in terms of the kinds of incentives that are being offered?
Yeah. And it’s actually an area, excuse me. In recent years, at least in the FA Insight study, what we wanted to understand better was how firms were using non-traditional benefits as a way to create employee value. So we always talk about the client value proposition, but very few firms talk about their employee value proposition. So what we wanted to understand was in addition to compensation and some of the more expected traditional benefits, like your retirement plan contributions or medical insurances, what else are they doing? And so, in the last people in pay study, we conducted we, and this is pre-COVID, we identified that 70% of firms were offering flexible working schedules, 61% have had made remote work options available. Of course, that number is likely much higher than that.
Brilliant.
Yeah, right.
Exactly. There’s 51% offered some kind of subsidized training programs for their team members to participate in. Paternity leave, time off for volunteer work, which I think is, is wonderful, subsidized meals. Things like bonus days off were offered by 18% of firms. Now that’s a sort of thing that is really valuable to an individual getting time off to spend with your family, your friends, or just time out, because you’re exhausted. It doesn’t cost the business a lot to deliver benefits like that, but you can have a huge impact on the wellbeing of the team and the culture that you’re creating. So I think it’s worthwhile asking the question of your team members again, kind of maybe proposing some ideas around the benefits that you think would be valuable as a business owner, but asking them, what are the things that they would really value as part of those sort of more non-traditional benefits? Because it will look different depending on the demographics of your team members.
And you want to make sure that if you are offering benefits, that they are being used by the team and that they’re being understood and valued by the team also.
And is there a structure that you would approach this with sort of a hierarchy that we know that we have to get base pay right first, because if we’re not, then the other things we might offer are going to be less perceived with less valued. How would approach this in an organized way?
I think one way to look at it is that base pay and incentive pay are huge contributors when you are recruiting new talent. The other incentives, those non-traditional benefits, like having paid extra bonus days off or paternity leave or flexible working arrangements so that you can take your children to school and pick them up in the evenings, those are the things that are going to make people stay. And I think we probably all know people, friends and family who maybe could be generating high level of income elsewhere, but because they have so many other benefits that help them to balance their lifestyle and give them the flexibility they need, they’re very happy to trade it off, perhaps pursuing a higher level of compensation for some of these softer benefits. I think they’re all important components, Steven, to your question. I do think at different times in the hiring process and in the retention of talent these various components will be more or less meaningful to a team member.
And I think it changes also amongst team members, because interestingly, of course, we’ve all got different levels of motivation and some might absolutely want to be just shooting for the maximum incentive. And you need to know who those people are and you need to understand what’s driving them, because some of these other things I’ve talked about, maybe absolutely not a fit for them, and they’re not be viewed with any real enthusiasm.
So do you find firms are trying to sort of personalize to that extent and find things that are meaningful by individual?
I think it’s really early days. I feel like we’ve been sort of, tracking some of the data on this for a few years, and we’re just starting to see the increase in some of these non-traditional benefits, which is a great thing. I think it’s moving in the right direction, but I do think there’s still quite a long way to go in terms of really optimizing that opportunity to offer different benefits that can create value for different ways. But I would always encourage firms to survey their team members and ask them the question and here are the things we’re offering you, how do you feel about these benefits? Are you utilizing the benefits? Are they valuable? If not, what else would you feel would be more valuable for you? Just kind of an easy way of being able to get to the heart of it without the guesswork. And of course you don’t want to waste money in the process.
Yeah. Yeah. I wonder also if some of these things are a nod to the culture, I mean, I remember talking to the name wildly successful firm who did quite a bit in terms of employee engagement, one of which was just this silly little acknowledgement. And it was a chocolate bar that they had done it… Anyway, and I mean, the point was, it wasn’t the chocolate bar, but the recognition was very important, the recognition in front of your peers was very important and it just created this culture of the leadership was thinking about these things and trying, and yeah, it created a different culture.
Well, I think that’s a perfect point to make there, Julie, in that all of these components of reward benefits come back to what behaviors you’re trying to drive within the business and the culture you’re trying to create, the values that are most important to you as a shareholder group. And that’s why that compensation philosophy, so thinking very early on about what are our values? Most firms have defined what they most… I shouldn’t say most firms, a number of the firms I’ve worked with have gone through that exercise, defining the values that are dear to them as a business. And you can then use that as the springboard for making all of these other decisions. Are we really delivering on our promise to our team members, the culture that we want to create? Does our compensation support those values, does our benefit support those values or are we not quite aligned?
And just sort of do wrap up Eliza, so that’s really interesting about how a firm can approach it. What do you see as the future? Where do you see this going in terms of compensation strategies?
Well, I think we’ve got a really long way to go. When we look at how few firms are using incentive compensation, I think there is a very big opportunity to think more about the behaviors that we want to drive, to think more about how we can connect pay to our strategy and reward team members above and beyond baseline responsibilities to contribute to our strategy and make sure as we’re doing all of that, that we are really aligning to our core values as a business. We just know from our research that very few firms, certainly larger firms tend to do a better job at it, but smaller firms in particular, really shy away from making significant changes like incentive pay when they’re thinking about the compensation plan. These are prickly difficult issues to figure out sometimes. And I think that’s why many businesses tend to kind of put them on the back burner.
But I do think there are so many resources out there now that that firms can tap into that they can really kind of get a good start, even in the early stages of development to really try to understand the principles and start applying them early on, so you can really build a great plan as your firm grows. You don’t encounter some of the challenges that so many businesses do.
I know that you have a lot of great resources and the research that you’ve you’ve done over the years is an enormous resource for advisors, Where can they find out more and learn about the work that you do?
The research is available through FA Insight. So I’m sure many of your listeners are familiar with FA Insight, and can access the annual study. For TD Ameritrade, those to have a relationship with TD Ameritrade, we produced a wealth of resources in particular, some great guidebooks in compensation planning, which help firms to kind of walk through each of the steps that they need to get through, to help make decisions in compensation planning. So I encourage for those of you who want access to resources, there are certainly plenty out there that we have developed and if firms need more hands-on consulting, then certainly that’s an area where I’m able to support directly where there’s an appetite for very much working for some of the bigger challenges in trying to resolve some issues, which perhaps have become a little bit too hard for them to handle on their own.
Yeah, that’s great. Well, we’ll make sure we include a link to your website as well in the show notes. So thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it.
Thanks Eliza.
Thanks Julie. Thank you, Steven.
Hey folks, Steve again, thanks for joining us on Becoming Referable. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes. It really helps. You can get all the links, show notes and other tidbits from these episodes at becomingreferrable.com. You can also get our free report, Three Referral Myths that Limit Your Growth and connect with our blogs and other resources. So until next time so long.