Participants:
Julie Littlechild
Steve Wershing
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Steve Wershing: As an expert on financial psychology, Kathleen has been quoted in such publications as, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Money Magazine, Today Magazine, Forbes, Forbes Woman. Her articles have appeared in American Banker Magazine, CNBC, Investment News and other trade and consumer magazines. In this episode, we discuss the new book, Breaking Money Silence: How to Shatter Money Taboos, Talk Openly About Finances and Live a Richer Life. We’ll discuss the real cost to clients of money silence and the implications for financial advisors. We’ll talk about the revelations she had about her own money silence with her husband after a contractor made off with tens of thousands of their dollars. We’ll talk about how helping clients break money silence, can improve your relationship with clients and, of course, we will get her take on how it affects referrals. Without further delay, let’s go to our conversation with Kathleen Burns Kingsbury. KBK, welcome to the Becoming Referable podcast. Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Steve Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Steve Wershing: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Steve Wershing: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Steve Wershing: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: What ended up happening for me, is I became really good at the technical side, I used to work in banking and I was an auditor and I certainly could balance a checkbook or a bank. But I couldn’t really talk about money with my partner and really as I started to have more and more and success from a business standpoint, I had a lot of trouble accepting the financial success. I would do all sorts of things, looking back, to sabotage myself and make sure that I wasn’t making too much money. So, yes, I personally have struggled with this and the good news is I’ve overcome it and life is much better when you have a sense of peace with money. Steve Wershing: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Flash forward many years, maybe ten years into our marriage. We decide to do a project on the house. He hires a contractor, and I certainly was part of that process as well. What ended up happening is the contractor ended up basically abandoning the property and stealing a large amount of money from us. All of a sudden, any tension that we had in our relationship was actually more intense. So, I thought, wow you’re really stupid with money and I’m really smart with money and this happened, and we became kind of very distant and polarized. So I became very obsessed with making sure that we were going to bounce back, had a lot of money shame and my husband seemed to not be as focused on the money. One day, I walked out to the mailbox and that will give you my age, I got my bills in the mail. I walked out to the mailbox and I picked up the mortgage and I started to be panicky because here I was thinking, wow we got ripped off, we don’t have enough money to pay the mortgage. Instead of yelling at my husband or being a wife and being kind of nagging, I walked into the living room and he was playing a video game. I looked at I thought, well, something’s wrong with this picture. I stopped him, and I said, “Brian, I really need to ask you a question.” He, to his credit, put down his game console, looked up at me and said, “What?” I said, “When are you going to worry about money? We’re in a really bad situation.” He thought about it and then finally, he just looked up at me and goes, “Oh, I think it’s when they take the car.” I said, “What?” He said, “When they repo the car, or when they take TV set.” Steve Wershing: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: It’s been 15 years now and he has a lot of strengths financially. He’s taught me a lot and I’ve taught him a lot as well. So, surprise, surprise, we’re in it together and talking about money more openly has certainly been good for our finances. Julie Littlechild: I was never going to make my husband an expert in finance, he had no interest, first of all. But, we began to realize that we needed to create a shared vision. Without those conversations, we probably never would have figured that piece out. But, I’d love to know from you, what do you think the cost of this money silence is? How do you think this is impacting the clients of advisors around the country? Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: When we’re looking at individual clients or couple clients, or family clients of advisors, just look to the high divorce rate. And while I’m not saying money causes all divorces, it’s often a very large factor. I think if we learn to talk about money, we can separate what are the financial issues versus what are some of the emotional issues and maybe couples would become a little bit stronger by being able to discuss the finances. I think, Julie, you and I highlighted how once we broke through that silence in our relationships, while it’s not perfect, it certainly helps bring a sense of intimacy and a sense of teamwork. I also think that one of the big costs that advisors don’t talk about and that I want to really bring to light with this work, is the idea that not talking about money really impacts women. I think a big part of why there’s still gender inequality when it comes to pay, is that there are so many messages to women about how you are not supposed to pay attention to money. That you’re actually not an attractive mate if you talk about money. I really think that inequality for your female clients is something that advisors could talk about. Lastly, and I think this is where it’s going to hit home for advisors, is that the biggest cost to advisors is if your clients aren’t talking about money, they’re not sharing with you. If you’re not talking about money, and not just talking dollars and cents, I’m talking about emotions, feelings, values, ultimately, I think it could cost advisors business. Because if you can truly connect around the emotional aspects and what money means to your clients and help them work through talking about money and teaching the next generation about money, then you’ve developed a bond that’s really lasting. Julie Littlechild: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Now, on the flip side of that. I also was in the world of mental health and I hung out with these psychologists and psychiatrists and therapists. They would say, “Oh, we don’t do money because anybody who is really focused on money, is very greedy.” So, you have the financial services industry that’s afraid to talk about feelings, they’re feeling phobic. You have the counseling industry that’s actually money phobic or money avoidant. Then you have the poor clients that are like, well, I guess we’re not supposed to talk about it. If we’re not supposed to talk about it in therapy and we’re not supposed to talk about it with our financial advisor, where the heck should we talk about it? My idea, is that financial advisors, and there are a lot of them out there, I think they may be in the minority right now, but to sit with that discomfort. It probably was uncomfortable the first time you had to do a financial plan with a client or meet with a client. This is just a new skillset that I really hope more and more advisors will learn to tolerate the discomfort and know that from that discomfort and from bridging the gap and having these conversations, boy, you have some wonderful dialogs, you get to really know your clients and be really helpful. Julie Littlechild: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Steve Wershing: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Steve Wershing: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Well, that’s not true. Men just have been socialized not to admit when they don’t know something. I think that myth actually hurts the men, because the male clients have to act as if and then they become more silent in the meeting. As opposed to a gift that I think a lot of women have, is being able to say, “I don’t know. Can you help me? Can you educate me?” The dilemma is, when women do that, they’re seen as not confident or not literate. When, in fact, you look at the numbers and both genders aren’t that financially literate. I think that’s a big one. Another one that I think really hurts financial advisors is the idea that somehow women, in general, aren’t interested in finance. If you look at the statistics, it’s 80% or 90% of women want to learn more about financial planning and want to meet with a financial advisor and want to really look at their family finances. So, the idea that women aren’t interested, I think, fuels silence because then advisors don’t talk to them. They tend to just talk to the male partner. I think that’s shifting and changing, but that’s certainly a hurtful myth. The last one, and this is a broader one, but that clients don’t want to talk about this emotional stuff. That’s another thing. I’m not comfortable. The therapist or the counselor should talk about these feelings. When in fact, the other thing that I hear from time to time from advisors is, “My clients don’t want to talk about this stuff.” Well, is it your clients or is it you? I don’t know if it was Julie or you Steve, if you give off that vibe that you don’t want to talk about something, that reinforces that money silence. People pick up on that whether it’s consciously or unconsciously. What’s okay to talk about and what’s not okay to talk about. More often than not, if your clients talk about their feelings about money or passing on wealth, they’re not going to fall apart in your office, they’re going to be fine. In fact, they may even been better than when they came in. Steve Wershing: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: For advisors, taking the time to figure out what is their money talk mindset, what are those strengths and what are their challenges. Then, how does that impact how they’re working with clients and the questions that they’re asking. I think if people start to really look at where this comes from and how it serves them, and sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn’t, then they can start to make shifts and changes. They are also role modeling to their clients that it’s okay to look at this, that we’re all in it together. I often think advisors, a lot of us have been taught to be experts. There’s a lot of different tools. I’m going to go back to the book because at the end of every chapter there’s an exercise for your clients, but there’s also an exercise for advisors on how to apply this to their practice. I think that money talk mindset is the first exercise, I think that self-examination, that self-awareness is important. But, then it can take a variety of different forms. One of the interesting ones that I did in the book, that I think is kind of fun, is the idea of looking at gender myths. How are you buying into the myths about men and money and women and money, either consciously or unconsciously? One way to do this, is to actually have a scavenger hunt. The idea is, you spend the day with your staff, or you can do it by yourself or with your family, and you look around and you just pay attention to all the different messages that are out there about money and about how it relates to gender and money, and you write all these instances down. At the end of the day, you get together and you take a look at, wow these are all the messages that we are getting that are influencing how we think about men and women and money and then how does this impact my practice? Or, if you do it with a family, how does this impact how we are planning for our financial future. Julie Littlechild: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Steve Wershing: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Julie Littlechild: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Steve Wershing: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Steve Wershing: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: It may even be asking your clients during their next annual meeting, if there’s one thing we’re not talking about in our meeting, what is it? Maybe we can build that into next year’s engagement. I think it’s really a process of looking at, what’s your sweet spot? Taking a look at your own relationship with money. This doesn’t have to be super in-depth. It could be just looking at your money talk mindset, thinking a little bit about your own comfort level and where your roadblocks might be. I think the second step is thinking about, okay, given my ideal client or the client that I’m meeting with this week, what is one or two questions I might ask them? You could even say, hey, I was listening to this great podcast, and I heard that 44% of Americans would rather talk about death than finances. What’s your reaction to that? That can open up a really interesting conversation. They could say, oh, I find it hard sometimes to talk about finance with my partner, and you might then start to find out where that comes from. There’s a variety of very easy ways to just introduce the topic, and just let your clients know that you’re open to having these dialogues. Steve Wershing: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Steve Wershing: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Steve Wershing: Kathleen Burns Kingsbury: Julie Littlechild:
Welcome to Becoming Referable, the podcast that shows you how to become the kind of advisor people can’t stop talking about. I’m Steve Wershing. As a financial advisor you already know that people have more taboos talking about money, than talking about sex. But few people have drilled down and explored their reluctance to discuss finances more than this episode’s guest, Kathleen Burns Kingsbury. Besides being a serial guest on this podcast, Kathleen is a wealth psychology expert, founder of KBK Wealth Connection, host of the Breaking Money Silence podcast, and author of five books on the psychology of money. The release of the most recent is the reason for us to visit with her again.
I’m so excited to be here with you both again today, and really excited to talk about my new project.
Well, we’re very excited about it too. We had a great conversation with you before and we’re very excited to have you back to talk about the new one. Let’s just jump into and keep the listeners riveted. Tell us about talking about money versus talking about sex versus talking about death.
Well, if we haven’t gotten your attention now, nothing will.
That’s right. Boom!
Well, one of the things with my new book, Breaking Money Silence, is I started to explore why is there such a taboo against talking about money. Then I started to look at some other taboos. What I discovered was that 44% of Americans would rather talk about death, religion or politics than they want to talk about personal finances. I thought, wow, that’s pretty horrifying when you think about it.
That’s pretty amazing.
So, really delving deeper into why is that, and certainly as advisors, what can you do about it, because your job is to help people talk about money, so that’s quite a dilemma.
How do advisors help people with that? Given that it is such a sensitive topic–well, let’s not go there just yet, because there are some things we want to talk about before that. Where did this topic come from? Have you had your own experiences with difficulties talking about money and having money silence?
I certainly have. I think anyone who lives in this society probably has had a moment or a couple of moments in their life where talking about money has been uncomfortable. I know for me, from a very early age, I was loud, and I had something to say, so it’s kind of fun that I become a keynote speaker and an author. When I was a kid, I was often taught about money, the dollars and cents about money, but we never really talked about the values or the goals. Certainly, there was an underlying message that you shouldn’t be too successful. It was okay to take care of yourself and save and make a good living, but if you really were profit motivated, especially if you were a woman, then that was something to really squash. We just didn’t talk about it. I got the message loud and clear that any time I wanted to make a profit, even when I was a little girl and started a dog walking service, I think that entrepreneurial spirit was a little bit squashed.
Just in terms of being able to communicate with your partner. In your book, you tell a funny story, well not a funny story, but an important and interesting story about some of the challenges you’ve experienced talking about money with your partner, specifically in terms of having an experience with a contractor. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Sure. It actually is funny in hindsight, at the time it wasn’t funny. One of the things in my relationship, like a lot of people, when I met my husband Brian, and we were dating, it became very clear that I was “good at money” and he was not “good at money.” I did what any self-respecting, former banker would do, and I took complete control over the finances. When we got engaged, one of the first things we did, looking back this is horrifying, but one of the first things we did was go to the bank and I make sure that I had a signature on all of his money. So, I really took control.
That’s pretty extreme.
Yeah. In that moment, I realized, wow, we have very different views of money. We came from very different families around money. While, I don’t think he’s stupid with money, he got less financial training and actually is better at tolerating financial discomfort than myself. Flash forward, this was the beginning of my career in financial psychology, so I have that contractor who ripped us off to thank. But, what I learned in that moment, and what I talk about in the book is it really is important to open the lines of communication and instead of judging each other around how you think and feel about money, learning about your partner’s thoughts and beliefs and then pulling on each other’s strengths.
You know, apparently, we’re married to the same man, first of all, which is slightly uncomfortable. In fact, Kathleen and I have talked in depth about a lot of this. I remember having a conversation and we were talking about the industry and the next thing you know, I was telling her in significant detail, about every money issue I’d ever had. But, I just love that you are talking about this issue, because it gets in the way of family unity, it gets in the way of marriages, it gets in the way of us really succeeding. I know people are uncomfortable with it. It does exacerbate the resentments that exist. In not a dissimilar way, and I won’t go into all the detail, but what I really remember finding out, is when we began to have different conversations, we were able to figure out what we could come together on.
I think you’ve highlighted some of the costs that are out there, and I think the costs are too high. But, if we look from a broader view, from a societal perspective first, the cost is we live in a financially pretty illiterate world. I think part of the reason we don’t learn about finances, is certainly our schools don’t teach about it on a regular basis, but also there’s this discomfort talking about it. So, as a parent, you may want to teach the next generation about money, but you feel uncomfortable and you’ve been raised not to talk about it, so this silence kind of perpetuates this societal financial literacy, which I really think has come to a crisis.
I can almost hear advisors saying, “I cannot go there. I am not a psychologist. I can’t wade into this.” How do you address that issue?
I love that you asked that question, I have a visceral response to that, because when I’m out speaking, I get that question a lot. Financial advisors, well-intended, but the idea that somehow if you help your clients talk about the emotional aspects of money, that that means that you’re a therapist or a psychologist or a psychiatrist, is actually ludicrous. I can say that because for 15 years I was a mental health counselor, I know what therapy looks like. I’ve done therapy. That is not therapy.
It may be flagging a discomfort that you have and that’s worth examining. Because if there’s any part of a money discussion that my financial advisor feels uncomfortable having, that’s a problem for me.
And I think that advisors are people too. I say that a lot. You live in the same society. I’m not pointing a finger of blame by any stretch. I’ve been very transparent about my issues around money and the fact that you can get better about talking about money. I think with advisors, and even looking at the industry at a whole, if you look at conference schedules or the CFP program, or any of the colleges out there that are teaching about finance, there really should be more training. And, I don’t like this word, but this is what it’s called, on the soft skills, on the communication skills, on the identifying and labeling and validating your clients’ feelings. Because that emotional data, is really, I think, just as useful as the financial data in helping your clients achieve their short-term and long-term financial goals.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to refer to it as “soft skills” because, it’s some of the hardest stuff that we have to talk about.
Absolutely. I think if we talked about it more routinely, it wouldn’t be so hard. Having 15 years of being a counselor, I know it’s easier for me to sit and tolerate difficult feelings or somebody who’s very excited. You could talk about feelings and it could be positive ones as well. But, I can tell you, over time it gets much easier. Then, what you learn, Steve, is that people really do want to talk about this. Julie, earlier you mentioned the idea of us starting that conversation and then we were really sharing things. I see that all the time. When I break money silence, the conversations I have are not just about money, they’re about really interesting things.
Some of the things that inhibit in the book talking about money, are some of the myths that surround money, that are so out there. For you, what are, say, the top three money myths that create that money silence?
That’s an interesting question, because when I think money myths, there are so many out there and they’re so personal. When I’m thinking about advisors and I’m think about the money myths that may impact them in terms of the money silence, I think of a couple of things. One is the idea that all men are financial literate and somehow all women are not. Now, I know that’s very extreme, but if you look at a lot of the articles out there or if you look at the way some of the research is presented, there’s kind of this belief that oh the men have it all together and the women don’t.
Let’s build on that a little bit. The discomfort is probably just as much on the advisor as on the client. We need to get that conversation open. What can advisors do that would help start breaking into that silence?
One of the things that I have in the book and that I do often when I present in the field, is talk about advisors’ and clients’ money talk mindset. Start by identifying what are your automatic thoughts and beliefs about talking about money, where do they come from, what ones serve you and what ones get in the way. For instance, I was raised with the idea that it was okay to talk about saving money, it was okay to talk about getting a bargain at Filene’s Basement when it existed, but it wasn’t okay to ask somebody their salary. Or, it wasn’t okay to be profit motivated. In some ways, that helps me because I’m a good saver, but it gets in the way if I want to run a successful business.
Do you find, gosh I’m not even sure how to word this, but to help people break through? For example, if I’m struggling talking about money for whatever reason, maybe what I need to do is get with a group of women, who are in a similar situation, and talk about these things. Then, maybe I could bring that back to my marriage. Do you see advisors either facilitating that or do you encourage that in any way?
Absolutely. In fact, I recently developed a workshop for clients for a particular client of mine, so a financial institution. It was all about talking to the next generation about money. But instead of it being the technical aspects it was much more around, what are things that get in the way of talking about money? What are the ways in which you want to talk about money? Or, even have a family that talks too much about money and worries too much about money. Then, how do we, as a group, start to have a conversation about this? What was cool about this seminar, that I didn’t plan on happening, or maybe I did, and it came to fruition. Was that people would get in a room and there was an introduction about the cost of money silence and what are the different things that we need to be thinking about. Financial literacy, emotional intelligence, family values, goals and dreams, and legacy, that kind of thing. Then there was a big opportunity for people in the room to just connect.
What I’ve heard back, and this has been tested across the country, what I’ve heard back is that they are having trouble getting these clients out of the venue. People aren’t leaving because once you open the dialog, people want to talk about money and they want a safe place. Whether it’s a group of all women, whether it’s a mixed group or a group of dads and daughters or moms and sons, whatever it may be. My sense is people are hungry for this, if you just create a safe space to do that. Safe just means that there is a little bit of structure and people know you are a financial advisor, they know you’re not a therapist.
Let’s say an advisor gets into this and they begin working with clients to start breaking through that money silence, how does that change the experience that the advisor provides the client?
Think about the last time you worked with somebody, whether it’s an advisor or somebody else, that really listened to you. That really seem to kind of get you. That spent some time understanding where you were coming from, not only financially, but also emotionally. If you think about those instances, often what ends up happening is, you trust that person, you may share more with that person, and the bond between you and that professional is going to be strengthened. I truly believe if advisors take on the challenge, and I call it joining the breaking money silence revolution, if they take on the challenge and say, I want to be a revolutionary. I want to coach my clients to talk about money, or maybe continue to do this at a little bit of a deeper level, it’s going to foster trust. It’s going to help you meet the next generation, because there’s a variety of creative ways in which you can pull in the next generation to have these conversations with their parents or grandparents, and it’s also going to help you connect more with women. Ultimately, I think breaking money silence is really something that’s going to improve your client relationships right at a time where robo-advisors are freaking everybody out. What’s one thing a robot cannot do?
There was a group, and they were a family office, a very high net worth family office. This is a first-world problem to have, but the assumption was almost, we don’t even need to talk to the kids. We just need to make sure they’ll inherit well. But they’ve got a lot of money coming to them. Whereas what they found was, they had these days where they would bring the next generation together and they would talk about things like, what is the downside of having the last name that you do? Because they were all literally affiliated with names that were brands, and it created this open conversation, the likes of which they’d never seen. I thought that was a really interesting twist on the experience.
Let me jump in with a quick story about my niece. My niece is 26. She works at a law firm. When she first gets this job two years ago, she called me up because she knew, Auntie Kay is what they call me, she’s that aunt that will talk about anything. She has a career. She calls me up and she says, I got offered a job, but I don’t know if I should negotiate salary. We went back in a couple of different phone calls, and basically, she was like a lot of women, and maybe some men, who feel as if, if I don’t take the first offer, the job offer is going to go away. I said, listen, I know I’m biased, but they offered you a job three hours after your interview, and they offered you near the top range. They want you. We had this great money conversation about negotiating salary. I coached her a little. She went off. She landed the position. Since then, has negotiated two or three raises, and is now coaching her girlfriends who are in the same demographic. I feel like, wow, one really cool conversation with my niece led to this ripple effect where we’re starting to affect other millennial women in terms of them advocating for themselves financially.
You’re talking now about a referral story. Let’s say it wasn’t Auntie Kay that had that conversation, but the advisor who had that conversation. How can breaking the money silence help create more referrals? Are there processes like the one you just described that can help get word out to get more people interested in talking with that advisor?
I think so, Steve. I think one of the things that’s sometimes hard to do, especially if you grew up in this industry when it was very transactional, or you’re still in a very transactional oriented business model, is the idea of meeting with the next generation and coaching them around real-life financial issues. How do I buy my first mortgage? How do I negotiate a salary? How do I manage my student debt? None of these are big money makers for financial advisors, but if you think about the model of being almost a loss leader or, I like this one better, creating goodwill, my sense is that if you offer that type of advice and you’re willing to spend a little time giving it, that if I was an advisor and that wasn’t my niece, let me tell you, she would be the first one to come and say, when I have amassed wealth, I want to invest in you because you took a chance on me. I think if we can do more of that, and I know advisors realistically, you can’t spend your whole day doing that, but could you put aside an hour a week for something like that and really just give back in that way and see what comes of it? I think a lot can.
I get the sense, reading your book and listening to you that money silence is not something that’s unique to younger people or the millennials. You were talking about the families with branded names before. The families of high net worth. It seems like this is good information for advisors who have high net worth clients who are starting to think about, I’m going to pass these millions of dollars onto my kids. Maybe we should talk about something at some point, but I don’t want to talk about the money with them. I don’t want them to know how much I have. It seems like it’s just as valuable, maybe more valuable, for some of those folks as it is for the millennials. What do you think?
I think breaking money silence is an equal opportunity problem, and it could be an equal opportunity solution. I don’t think the socioeconomic status of your clients or the net worth matters. I think it’s valuable at all ends of the spectrum. With high net worth or ultra-high net worth, I think the myth that’s out there, a lot of advisors, I don’t think buy into this anymore, but the myth is somehow, they have a lot of money. They’ll be fine. Or they talk about money because they have money. That is not true. It is, as Julie alluded to, can be much more complicated if you are a parent that has money to then teach your kids how to be financially responsible. It’s just much more complicated. I think advisors need to take a step back and go, okay, who is my ideal client, number one? What are the conversations that maybe they might want to have, but aren’t having? And how might I be able to facilitate those?
I do these advisory boards, and I hear all of these high net worth clients, because the firm’s challenge, of course, is to connect with the next generation. We bring people together into the advisory board and we ask them about how to do that, and so many of them are just like, I don’t want to talk with my kids about the money. I don’t want my kids to know how much I have and all this kind of stuff. The advisor’s like, okay, and they let it drop. I’m thinking to myself, you probably ought to pursue this conversation, but that’s not my role in that situation. Boy, there are so many advisors that could I think really benefit from hearing this conversation and figuring out how to talk with some of those, because some of those clients are really just setting up their kids to have all kinds of problems, because they don’t know how much they’re going to get. They don’t know what to do with it. They don’t know how to manage it. These are potentially life-changing inheritances we’re talking about.
I think one of the things, just quickly, Steve, is that the next time an advisor hears that from a client, that, I don’t want to talk to my kids, instead of just taking no for the first answer, just ask a follow up. What do you think it would be like? What’s your greatest fear? What if it went well? What do you think would be different? Just gather more of what I would call that emotional data to then use that to then make a decision about that particular client, that particular family. I think the challenging part for people when it comes to talking about money, and for advisors, is that there’s not a cookie cutter approach.
It’s been a great conversation, but we need to wrap up. Kathleen, remind everybody about the details about the book and where can they find it.
Sure. It’s called Breaking Money Silence. The easiest way to find out more about the book is to go to the website, breakingmoneysilence.com. There’s a bunch of free tip sheets and things like that, both for clients as well as advisors.
That’s great. Well, Kathleen, thank you for joining us to Becoming Referable podcast, and thanks for sharing this with us.
Thank you. So fun to talk with you two as well.
Hi. It’s Julie again. It was great to have you with us on Becoming Referable. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes. It really does help. You can get all the links, show notes, and other tidbits from these episodes at becomingreferable.com. You can also get our free report, Three Referral Myths that Limit Your Growth, and connect with our blogs and other resources. Thanks so much for joining us.