Participants:
Steve Wershing
Julie Littlechild
Mark Schoenbeck
Steve:
Welcome to Becoming Referable, the podcast that shows you how to become the kind of advisor people can’t stop talking about. I’m Steve Wershing. In this episode we talk with Mark Schoenbeck. Mark has been a financial advisor, product marketer, chief marketing officer, and practice management consultant. Currently, he is executive vice president and national sales director of Kestra Financial, where he oversees marketing, recruiting, advisor consulting, retail acquisitions, and Kestra Private Wealth Services. Previously Mark has held senior executive roles at Mutual Services Corporation, AssetMark and Curian Capital. Through our conversation with him he’ll explain how getting clarity around who you most want to serve and what you bring to that very specific client makes good things happen. We discuss being vulnerable in your communication and how that can take you beyond know, like and trust and strengthen relationships with clients. And stay through until the end where Mark reveals the one question he finds is most powerful for helping an advisor identify exactly who their ideal client is. It’s a great conversation with lots of practical tips for clarifying your market, focusing your business, and building better relationships. And so, here’s our conversation with Mark Schoenbeck.
Julie:
Mark, welcome. So good to have you here today.
Steve:
Yeah, welcome Mark.
Mark:
Thank you. Excited to be here.
Julie:
I was excited to have you on because you have this really unique perspective I think, in the industry. You’ve worked in different roles over the years obviously, but your roles have always been about working with advisors and helping them build their business. I think that gives you a unique perspective on how they’re running their businesses generally. But also how they’re approaching referrals. So maybe I could just start at that high level and just ask you, what are two or three things that you think advisors perhaps need to do differently if their goal is to truly increase referrals?
Mark:
Yeah, it’s a great question. And you’re right, I’ve been fortunate to have spent a lot of time in advisors’ offices and helping them work through some of this stuff. I think for me there’s a couple key pieces to it. Ultimately people need to be authentic, right? They need to be who they are and that transcends, then, into their business and advisors need to understand who it is that they most enjoy working with and serving, and then they need to understand what is it that they bring to that very specific client in an authentic way to demonstrate the value and how they can help that particular client. As simple as that sounds, if an advisor can find a way to get clarity to exactly who it is that they want to work with and why their experience and their purpose aligns with the very specific needs of that group, that very, very basic formula puts them in a place to serve a lot of people. I’m a big believer that if your intent is to serve and to help, and you are clearly defining how you do that, good things will happen.
Steve:
Mark, could I ask you to elaborate a little bit? Because one of the things that I hear from a lot of advisors that I have concerns about because you talk about authenticity, which I think is important and the “why” behind who you want to help. One of the things I hear advisors over-generalize to is we care more. We care more about your well-being and serving you properly and … What are your thoughts about advisors who use that as one way to market their practice?
Mark:
Yeah, it’s a great observation. And I do an exercise a lot of times when I’m in front of a group of advisors. And I will say “Okay, everybody get out a pen and a piece of paper. I want you to write down all of the things that make you unique, that truly make you unique” and I give them a couple minutes to work on it. And then I will have everybody in the room read their list and to your point, you hear a lot of the very similar things, “We care about our clients, our clients trust us, we do a great job of listening”, right? And unique things about that exercise, one, you never hear price or performance come up which I love to point out, it is always the right side of the brain, human emotional connection stuff that everybody feels makes them unique. But what happens in the setting, in having everybody write it down first is what everybody sees and hears is that they’re all talking about the same things and they’re using the same terminology.
It’s one of the things that I love about the independence side of our business is that as a whole, that group of advisors from my experience are really well-intentioned people who truly, truly care for their clients and so they try to articulate that but what ends up happening is that it sounds … One, it’s very hard to make tangible but two, it sounds very similar across the group and so what we do at that point or what I like to do is to shift the conversation a little bit to helping the advisor understand their own purpose and their own “why”. Like, why are they in this business after 25 years when they could have chosen any other profession? Why are they still here? Why are they serving their clients? And what I have found is through their own personal kind of journey and purpose for being there in the business it uncovers or unlocks a unique story that they can then go and use with their clients and nine out of ten times their own personal story, not surprisingly, aligns very well with the clientele that they serve and they’re looking to grow.
So I try to help them make these very important qualitive, emotionally charged kind of adjectives more personable and relatable and referable by helping them pull out their own personal story. And those personal stories really can tug at the heart strings. It’s a story so it’s easier for people to remember and people love to tell stories hence you start to spread the word about the advisor and what makes them different.
Julie:
So if you … I mean you started off by using the word “authentic”, which I think is an important one and I assume that the advisors in those exercises or during those exercises would argue, these words I’m using are authentic, it’s how I truly feel. So is it more in the way that they need to communicate or demonstrate those things? Or is there a different meaning to “authentic” that you’re thinking about there?
Mark:
No and I think Steve will appreciate it. For me, especially on the topic of referrals and referability, I always joke with advisors about how many of them have sat through some painful elevator pitch presentation and how many of them have some footer on the end of their emails that says “Hey a great way we grow our business is through referrals”. And I point those out not to cast blame, the industry has done it to itself but the reality is most advisors I have found, they will sit through that elevator pitch presentation and they’ll come up with something corny and fun at the moment but if you ask them a year later whether they’ve ever used that with a real prospect or a client, they will all tell you “no” because it’s, in my opinion, it’s a marketing spin on what it is they do for their clients versus being a true, authentic heartfelt story about themselves that shows a level of vulnerability, demonstrates the value of what they’re trying to do with their clients. And what I find is if you ask a person to talk about their own personal story, they can do that with a lot of emotion, it’s going to come across authentic versus them having been convinced by a public speaker that they need to be a financial quarterback or whatever analogy we’ve all heard a zillion times.
Steve:
Yeah, well and that brings up another interesting, another possibility. I love the fact that you bring up the idea of vulnerability and I wonder what your perspective is on whether they gravitate towards words like “Trust” and “Service” and “Listening” and those kinds of things because they have not adequately clarified who exactly it is that they’re shooting for and so they draft things that they hope will be appealing to everybody.
Mark:
Yeah, I think that’s some of it. I let a lot of advisors off the hook when we’re having this conversation by saying “Hey look, if you go back to the early days of you being in the business. And it was day one, I was an advisor straight out of college and so I’ve lived it. Back in those days if somebody could fog the mirror and they were willing to write you a check, you said ‘Yes, I’ll take you on as a client’. It was a matter of survival and I think most advisors when they get started are in that. And what happens is you make it through that first year and you’re like ‘Okay, I survived’ and then hopefully by year two or three you’re profitable and you’re growing but the brain has now been hard-wired and has formed a habit that I, as an advisor, should and can help every single person that, kind of, walks through the door. And that’s a very, very hard habit for an advisor to break. And a lot of the conversations that we have along these lines are helping them understand that while that might have been a necessity early on, not necessarily where they are at this point in their career.
And that general, generalist approach makes it extremely hard to get laser-focused and to know exactly, back to where we started, know exactly who it is that you’re looking to serve and what it is that you do that is unique to that particular segment of the population and the more clarity you can get them on, the more success they’re going to have and actually grow it.
Julie:
And I think it’s an interesting point and the reality is, and I want to come back to what you just said by the way so I don’t want to lose that but … I don’t ever remember in business school people telling us to be more vulnerable, right? It just didn’t come up.
Mark:
That’s right.
Julie:
And so to some extent, I think there’s been a change in how we communicate, how we think about our businesses, how we articulate that in general. So like you, I wouldn’t say it’s advisors who’ve done anything wrong, I think this is a shift in communications generally. I find myself more vulnerable in my writing notes but I think it’s just because I’m old and I don’t care. It might be a different issue but is that fair, do you just think we’re shifting in how we communicate?
Mark:
I definitely think so, I think the topic of vulnerability has also become way more popular with Brené Brown and if you haven’t read any of her stuff or watched any of her TED videos, I think she has made it okay, especially in this left-brain, kind of macho industry we live in, I think she’s started to build some bridges to have the conversation or at least understand the context of what that means at its core, without necessarily going as deep into what she talks about. But at its core, I have always been a huge believer that first and foremost we are all in a relationship business and that relationships are built with people that know, like and trust you. And that basic formula again, overly simplistic but is outrageously, outrageously powerful and when you think about what goes into people knowing, liking and trusting you, vulnerability is a huge, huge component to building trust and rapport and arguably is a huge accelerant to being able to have that level of relationship with people. And so while the industry might not have been using this concept or term of vulnerability, if you peel back the onion on the relationships that we all have, the more you’re open, authentic, trusting, vulnerable with somebody, the more likely it is that you’re going to build a type of relationship with them that’s going to be unique and differentiated and lasting.
Steve:
And I think that’s a really important clarification on that, Mark, because you know, if I hear “It’s a relationship business” again, I’m going to throw up I think. But the way most people interpret that is “Well therefore I’ve got to take them to golf games” and do a whole lot of things that aren’t really about relationship, that aren’t really about “Oh, I’ve got to give them great service because that establishes the relationship”. You’re bringing up a really interesting point that no, it’s actually being personal with people, being vulnerable not just knowing what kind of soft drink they like when they come in to the lobby but sharing something of yourself in that as not only a way of establishing the relationship but a way of distinguishing yourself from other advisors they could choose.
Mark:
Yeah, that’s right. And to me, hearing you talk through that, it’s about caring and, to your point, a lot of the tactics that the industry has created or has coached to advisors, what is their favorite soft drink when they walk in? What are their kids’ names? Those tactics are important, again if it’s authentic, right? We have those tactics because it’s a tangible way to demonstrate to somebody else, “I have sat with you, I have listened to you, not just hear you but I have listened to you, you have been vulnerable with me to share with me what’s important to you and because you’re important to me, I have taken that to note and I’m trying to demonstrate that”. So again, if I’m doing it because I heard about it or I saw a presentation on it and there isn’t a heartfelt, true genuine desire to demonstrate that you’re caring for somebody, it will fall flat and it does become kind of a gimmicky industry sort of idea.
I think for me this whole concept is, how do I as a human truly demonstrate to other people that I care about you. Because when you think about it and you hear this from advisors all the time, clients show up in an advisor’s office and within a couple of meetings are pouring their financial life and heart and soul out on the table and that’s an outrageously vulnerable experience from a client prospect perspective. You, as the advisor, I believe would want to reciprocate that level of vulnerability, right? They’re showing you their whole world and it’s not that you’ve got to turn around and do the same but for there to be equilibrium in this relationship and then the trust, you as the advisor have to be able to match that in some form or fashion.
Steve:
And it gets back to something that you said before, Mark, sharing something of your story and knowing your “why”. Why is it that you have passion for working with the kinds of people that you want to work with? And I think of course, instantly of Stacy Francis, in New York, whose personal story about why she got into the business is incredibly powerful and not only does it share something that’s really personal and meaningful to her but it also acts to give credibility to say “This is why I care so much about people in your position because I watched my grandmother go through this and right then and there I decided I would never let another woman go through that if I could help it”. And that’s a very powerful … That’s not just “We provide great service”, that’s a serious thing to communicate with somebody and…
Mark:
And it’s a phenomenal example and think about that, there’s nobody else in this world, on this planet that has that exact same story.
Steve:
Right.
Mark:
That story is unique to her and it cannot be replicated by anybody else and the better, I don’t know her, but the better she is at telling that story, the emotionally charged that story is going to be and guess what? What are the memories that stick with us?
Steve:
Right, right.
Mark:
The memories that stick with us are the ones that tug at the heartstrings, that are emotionally charged. So you have an advisor telling an emotionally charged story, demonstrating her purpose and her purpose is not to put more Ferraris in her garage, her purpose is to help empower other people to not have a similar experience now somebody hears that and this is the beauty of everything we’re talking about. It’s that people, where that story resonates, are going to be the people that she wants to do business with and if there are people that hear that story and go “Meh, not interested”. Guess what? Everybody’s doing themselves a favor by not connecting people that are charged by the same kind of purpose. And that then is everything that comes back, in my opinion, to the referability piece because if I hear that story and it resonates with me and I’m emotionally moved by that story, the likelihood that demographically I’m hanging out with other people that will share a similar experience is extremely high and I will be able to go and share that story. “Let me tell you about this conversation I had”, and it will flow and be natural and authentic and it won’t be somebody trying to say “Well, I have a great wealth manager, provides asset allocation”. That’s the power, that’s the power of everything we’re talking about.
Julie:
And I think …
Steve:
So let’s … I’m sorry, go ahead Julie.
Julie:
I just wanted to bring it back to where you mentioned very early on in the conversation, Mark, that we were looking at ideal client profile and understanding who you’re uniquely qualified to serve. On a structural or tactical basis I think these are part of what you’re saying, so how does that all then connect in your mind between having these powerful stories and really understanding who you’re uniquely qualified to serve and how you do that?
Mark:
Yeah and we should probably run with Steve’s example here, right? If I have a life experience that has shaped who I am and what my beliefs are about money and it has led me to be an independent financial advisor and my purpose is to make sure that other people don’t go through a similar experience. Almost by definition that starts to whittle down who are the people that I am looking to serve, right?
Julie:
Yeah.
Mark:
And so that will help the advisor … It’s the power of the story and the power of starting… we’re dropping a lot of Simon Sinek references today. It is the power of starting with the “why”, right? That purpose can help you refine … Because a lot of advisors, if you just put them on the spot and say “Who’s your ideal client?”, are not going to have a good, well-articulated answer. My experience is that when you start with a story it can help lead you down the path to get to a place where it says “Hey, I help” fill in the blank of what that niche might be and then on a more tactical basis than you do need to do some high-level justification.
I’m not a big fan of creating big complex business plans and doing a ton of data analysis around it but you’ve got to do a basic gut check on “Okay are there enough of these people in my world that this is going to be a viable kind of niche for me to be playing in?” And then it comes back to your question around, “Okay tactically”, and this is oftentimes a really hard piece for the advisor too, is, “Okay what do I do that truly is unique for this segment?” Because it’s a very commoditized industry in a lot of ways, right? Everybody’s going to do some level of planning, everybody’s going to have some sort of asset allocation philosophy and process and a lot of that stuff is commoditized, right? Tough love comment.
But what makes it unique is I’m guessing in these scenarios, unless you use this example of “Hey maybe we work with widowers or female financial decision makers”, there are unique things in their experience, there are unique things that they need to solve for that maybe somebody else doesn’t. And typically what we find in talking to advisors is, if you really probe and say “Well what is it you do for the client? What’s your favorite success story of the client?” I always love asking advisors “How many times have you received thank you notes, had somebody bring you cookies, been invited to some event, a retirement party or college graduation?” And if you’ve been in the business long enough, everybody has them and then I will hone in on that particular person and say “So what have you done for them, what are some of the things that you’re most proud of having solved for them and these very tactical types of questions can uncover some hidden gems of unique things that they can do.
And it’s going to be the cliché word but advisors are great at finding unique ways to add value to that relationship and again, depending on the segment, there’s a gazillion of them. But you hear the stories of advisors that have gone to extraordinary measures to help people navigate the broader financial decisions in their lives and it’s in those moments, and again common denominator, there’s usually something emotionally charged in those moments related to the task of “Hey, I’ve never bought a car before, I’m going to go help somebody buy a car” or a husband passes away or a spouse passes away and you help them navigate that. Those life events come with a lot of emotion and if the advisor is showing up and solving to those and they’ve done that enough times with a certain segment, they can start to articulate “You know what, here’s a world that we live in, here are the most common questions my clients have and here are the unique things that we do to help them in those moments” and it’s typically not anything to do with investments, wealth management, it’s a more about the life process.
Julie:
Yeah.
Steve:
Although it could and I’d like to get you to drill down into this a little bit because those life experiences can translate into technical expertise or skills that you seek to develop. One of the things I’m reminded of is that it strikes me … I think risk management is the base of the financial pyramid and it occurs to me that it seems like more highly successful insurance agents lost a parent when they were young. And so that’s a very personal experience, it defined to some extent their life but they have then turned that into a technical expertise that when it comes to what kind of policy and how do we design it, I mean, they’ve just got chops around it because they were driven to do it by the emotional thing. So can you think of some other examples of not just providing better support or service but how it could translate into capabilities or expertise or those kinds of things because of that life experience?
Mark:
Yeah, no absolutely. And it’s a great point. They’re all over the place. Take an advisor who works with young corporate executives, so what’s unique to a young corporative executive? They probably are on the road a lot, they’re stressed out, they’re not home enough, they probably have fairly complex stock option scenarios that they’re trying to manage. And so you start to peel back the case study of an individual client and to your point, and you’re absolutely right, there is a technical level of expertise that you need to solve for and this is one of the far spectrums that I love to use. And I’ll say “Okay, if you’re working with a young corporative executive, do they have unique needs? Yes, kids, life insurance, stock options. If you’re dealing with my 75-year-old retired mother, is she worried about the vast majority of that stuff, no, not at all, what is she worried about? She’s worried about her income, she’s worried about Social Security options and to your point, each segment is going to have an opportunity to demonstrate a tactical level of knowledge and expertise and a tool set arguably both of those come with different kind of tools that an advisor can use.
My bias though and I think why it comes out a little bit on the other side is we, as an industry, need to get away from saying to my 75-year-old retired art professor mother, “Let’s talk to you about optimizing point and time risk” or Let’s not talk about the jargon that that segment might… Favorite line, “My mom doesn’t want to know how the watch is made, she just wants to know what time it is”.
Steve:
Sure, sure.
Mark:
We as an industry are horrible at highlighting or at least not … Being a little harsh. I should say we have room for improvement as an industry to translate our technical expertise into real-life human language and talk to our clients in a way that resonates and a way that they understand.
Julie:
And I think you know it could just be that the technical expertise is just one of the things that you look at. I always like to think of it as, like you said, you put your client at the center and you think about how does my business need to be different? What skills do I need? What technical expertise do I need? What about my team? Who do I need on my team? What process? What partnerships? All of that kind of builds around it and yeah, I think you’re right, Steve, technical expertise is going to be one of those spokes, if it’s a hub and spoke, that you look at and need to think about making… Asking “Why is my business different?” Or “how is my business different because of who I work with?”
Steve:
Yep.
Mark:
And you’re so spot-on, Julie and that again comes back to helping an advisor get to a point where they recognize and are comfortable breaking that old habit and going out to the world and saying “While I will help anybody that comes and knocks on my door, where we really love to spend our time and energy is helping this specific group of people”.
Steve:
Yeah, I think one thing that’s important to remind advisors of is that while that was important to you early on and it contributed a lot to your early success, that what got you here, won’t get you there and that part of that specialization, part of that trimming down is part of the evolutionary process, part of the process of growing. But can we talk a little bit more about communication and can you talk a little more specifically about how can you… When you talk about communication in a client-centric way, can you go into a little more depth about what you mean by that?
Mark:
Yeah, two books have really influenced my thinking in this area. One is “The Language of Trust”, you should go look it up and check it out. It’s a great read that talks about the power of language and a lot of academic research has been done around that. It’s for me, a must, for a financial advisor. And the other one…
Steve:
And just as an aside, Mark, just for everybody listening, we’ll put that and some of the other things we’ve been referring to in the show notes, if they go to the web page.
Mark:
Great, awesome. So, the other one I would add to that is hands-down, by far my favorite marketing book ever and it’s not specific to our industry it’s a book called “Made to Stick” and it talks about how do certain messages and stories in our society persist and resonate and they provide a pretty good formula for making sure that your messages are going to stick with your clients. One of the core tenets in that book is what they say, beware … I’m drawing a blank on it, it’s jargon. Be jargon-free basically, “Beware the curse of jargon” is the term that they use in the book. So we, as an industry, have grown up in the industry, we have studied the industry and we think in the context of the industry language of alpha, beta, and r-squared and downside capture and upside capture and all the fancy terms that we like to say because we think it makes us smart but the reality and the tough love is the client or prospect sitting across from you starts to zone out and wonder about what chores do I need to get done tonight, as you’re kind of pontificating on that.
My encouragement always is to drop all of that stuff and the “Language of Trust” actually has done academic research to demonstrate that the more of that jargon you use, the less trust you build with your clients.
So, there’s academics studies that are showing the fancier you sound in today’s skeptical world, the less trustworthy you are. And the real talent and skill comes to the advisor that can translate that jargon-y stuff, because to your point, Steve, they do need to know but they can translate that into language and metaphors and analogies so that the client can actually understand what it is that the advisor’s recommending or suggesting. One of my favorite tips is just to go to the advisor and say “The best place you have to learn this technique is in your actual client meetings.” Listen to the language your clients use, listen to the questions your clients ask and literally, as you’re sitting there taking notes, write down verbatim what they asked you because that is marketing gold because that’s the language that they use and that’s how they think and you can take that same language and use it in your marketing and on your websites and in your PR and all of the things that you do. The more human it is, the more relatable it’s going to be. The more trust it’s actually going to build with the client.
Steve:
Mark, as you were saying that it brought this idea to mind. What would you think about actually recording some client meetings, with their permission, of course? And either reviewing it later or having somebody else on your team or a coach listen to it to pick up on some of that that you might have missed in the moment?
Mark:
Yeah, the evolution of recording meetings for me has been a fascinating one. The fact that everybody now has a smart phone that you can drop on a desk and record makes it a lot easier. There are some cool technologies earlier that advisors were using. Candidly, I like the idea. I have heard very mixed reviews from advisors, either advisors love it or they hate it. Everybody who has a compliance department should also think through the compliance ramifications of recording client conversations.
Steve:
Yeah, right, sure.
Mark:
I personally am a fan of it. Again, if you’re putting the client first and doing the right thing by the client, having that ability to go back and play back not only for your own education and usage.
Steve:
And I’m not talking about all meetings, I’m just talking about a couple little samples to try to find what you’re saying is some of those little nuggets that you may be missing.
Mark:
Yeah and maybe that is one framework is you use it on that early discovery meeting or two where hopefully you’re asking a lot of meaningful “why” questions to the client and you’re not getting into the tactical, financial planning process quite yet.
Julie:
And I imagine the questions change over time so it’s not just understanding what your clients asked initially in that discovery meeting but what they’re asking 10 years into the relationship.
Mark:
That’s right.
Julie:
At the risk of stating the absolute obvious, but I’ll do it. If you can use language that helps your clients then obviously, or I’m assuming the suggestion is at least, that they can then share that a little more easily with people they know.
Mark:
Absolutely.
Julie:
And that kind of loops us back to referrals. So I wanted to ask you, since I know we’re closing in on time here with you. We’ve talked about so many things and we’ve gone off in some really interesting directions, I love this conversation. But if you were to think of those one or two things for advisors, maybe just after listening to this that they could get on with, what would you recommend for them?
Mark:
Yeah, I’m a big believer in clarity, right? When your vision is clear, your decisions are easy. So I would start with understanding and going through an exercise to re-engage with your purpose. Why, of all the careers you could have chosen, why are you a financial advisor? Why is this what you’ve committed your life to? And get real good at telling that story, then tactically overlapping that with a clarity around who you want to work with.
Very quickly, my favorite way to help, kind of accelerate, that process is to answer the following question and the language is deliberate. I love going to an advisor and saying “Good news, bad news, you want the bad news, we’re going to come to your office tomorrow and we’re going to fire every single one of your clients”. Now there are some advisors who actually think that’s good news but most think it’s bad news. And then question two is, “If you could keep 10 clients, who would be the 10 clients you would keep?” As simple, again, as that sounds, it’s by far one of the most powerful exercises I’ve ever used with advisors because the question around “Who are the 10 you want to keep?” is extremely different than “Who are your 10 biggest clients?” because hardly ever are those two lists the same. And if you can identify the 10 clients you would want to keep, typically those are the clients you enjoy spending the most time with, that have the highest level of trust, are typically your best referrers because if you had to start from scratch you’d want to keep your cheerleaders.
And then if you take that list of 10 and peel back the onion and ask yourself, how did they become a client? Where do they work? Who are their CPAs? What are their hobbies? You start to see patterns form that if you, as a generalist don’t have clarity on your ideal client, that exercise can go a long way in helping you uncover a couple nuggets. And then the last piece, once you’ve said “Hey, here’s a group that I really enjoy working with” is to get clarity again. What are the things that you do or the expertise that you have that makes you uniquely positioned to serve that group. Just that exercise, those three steps, if you can take some time to do that and get some clarity around that can be a game changer.
Julie:
Love it, love it. Thank you so much. Let me thank you for your time today. It’s been a wonderful conversation and as Steve mentioned there’s a ton of resources that you’ve mentioned so we will absolutely make sure we list all of those in the show notes because you’ve mentioned some great ones today that I think… And a couple I hadn’t looked at so I’m going to be on that too. So thank you so much for your time.
Steve:
Thank you so much, Mark.
Mark:
My pleasure. Great conversation.
Julie:
Hi, it’s Julie again, it was great to have you with us on Becoming Referable. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes, it really does help. You can get all the links, show notes and other tidbits from these episodes at BecomingReferable.com. You can also get our free report, Three Referral Myths That Limit Your Growth and connect with our blogs and other resources. Thanks so much for joining us.