Participants:
Steve Wershing
Julie Littlechild
Leo Pusateri
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Welcome to Becoming Referable , the podcast that shows you how to become the kind of advisor people can’t stop talking about. I’m Steve Wershing. On this episode, we welcome back to the program, Leo Pusateri, President and CEO of Pusateri Consulting. Leo was recognized as one of the leading experts on defining and pricing your value. In that role, he has worked with some of the top advisors and some of the biggest institutions on the North American continent. But the occasion of bringing him back is his publication of a new paper, The Game Has Changed, his response to what’s going on with the coronavirus pandemic. In it, he lays out 10 principles for making sure that you are reinforcing, in fact even increasing, your value to clients, and the kinds of things you need to do to make sure you are taking care of your clients, taking care of your team members, and taking care of yourself.
We cover ideas like how and why you need to put your oxygen mask on first. Leo relates the scary story of a flight he took that resulted in his being able to take home the oxygen mask that drops down from the ceiling in front of you. We talk about how to be sensitive to the needs and worries of our teams. We talk about how to stay close in this era of quarantine, and we talk about things like the importance of innovating and pivoting as you make your way through this unprecedented time. It’s a great conversation. I wish we could have covered all of the principals in the program, but we go in-depth on some of what Leo considers to be the most important ones, and we provide a link at the end where you can download your copy of The Game Has Changed. With that, let’s get onto our conversation with Leo Pusateri. Leo Pusateri, welcome back to the Becoming Referable podcast. Good to see again my friend.
Thank you, Steve and hi, Julie. It’s good to talk to you about again.
Yeah, you too.
Thank you.
Well we really appreciate your including us when you wrote your new paper, The Game Has Changed, and we thought that there was so much good stuff in there for advisors. So much important stuff in what everyone is dealing with now. We’re really grateful to have you back on to talk a little bit about it. It’s a message we really want to get out there. Let’s start with what was … Before we get into the content of the paper itself, let’s talk about what motivated you to write this? What what caused you to sit down and put pen to paper and put all these principles down on paper?
Well, just like most people, I was having a lot of sleepless nights, tossing and turning, endless questions from family members, friends, clients. People ask me, “Leo, what are you thinking? What’s your mindset? What’s your strategy going forward for working through this global pandemic, and now obviously a public health crisis?” And something clicked. I don’t know what it was. If you’ve watched the Forrest Gump movie and Tom Hanks, there was a part in the movie, you remember when he said, “I just started running, and just kept on running.”
Run Leon, run.
In my case I just started writing, and I just kept on writing, and all these concepts just started to flow out of me. I just kept running, I just kept on writing. That’s exactly how it happened.
It’s kind of an interesting point though. I’ve noticed that when there are certain topics where you’re feeling it so deeply, you can be very prolific during this phase. Like I find that. I’ve noticed others are producing some really amazing content and it does seem to flow more than ever before.
Yeah. My pen did not want to stop. I probably could have come up with 10 more principles, because every day all we are reading about is how leaders are managing in a crisis mode right now. And I’m continuing to write, and if you could see my office out here in Scottsdale, there’s probably eight flip charts around here that I’m looking at, and things just reminded me of what I can do every day to get better and more effectively serve clients and things. That’s how it all started Steve.
Okay. As you thought about these things, what do you think are the biggest challenges that advisors are facing right now? And I appreciate, maybe that would be a different answer last week and next week, but how about today?
Well, Julie, I really believe clients are looking for wealth leadership today. Leadership is the big thing. We’re seeing it on the news every day, and they needed from their advisory community as well. If you think back, if we rewind the clock, the markets have driven growth for a long time now, but the clients need confidence as we speak. I believe it’s a big wake up call for advisors today to further prove and to validate their value. To justify their fees that they are getting paid, this is really important right now. People are just fundamentally, they’re not optimistic right now and the next decade, quite honestly, could be a mess. If you think about the amazing amount of anxiety that’s going on right now about the future, it’s incredibly deep anxiety for many people, for everybody. It’s not just the advisors but for the clients.
If you rewind the clock even further, go back a hundred years with the Spanish flu, and think of the other types of pandemics or crisis we faced in our careers in the last number of years, whether it was the mortgage crisis or a tech bubble or a market crash, this is different now. People are dying in this. If you think of everything that I’m reading, that the words that keep coming up are fear and uncertainty, and frightening, and excruciating decisions that need to be made. You have to pick between bad options. There’s trade offs. We’ve got to fight for our clients right now. This is what’s really important is to find ways… In my cases, as I’m telling advisors we’ve got to find another gear in terms of our day to day communications with our client telling things. So those are, I believe, some of the biggest challenges that I’m seeing out there.
Well Leo, it’s an interesting point. We’re going to get into some of the principles that you wrote about, but just based on what you were saying what… Overall on a broader basis, how do you think wealth management needs to change to adapt to this new environment?
Well, Steve, if you think about this, there’s no playbook for this, right? This isn’t in the advisors training course, when they started their careers and things. “Hey, we’re going to run into a situation where your clients are going to come to staggering halls to their businesses. There’s going to be family illness. People are going to be dying.” This wasn’t in rookie training type of thing, or in getting their advanced continuing education credits on an annual basis, if you think about this.
But this isn’t rocket science either. I’ve always used the word with my team that we should always be over communicating. You’re finding out what clients want, but especially in situations right now as simple as this sounds, just to make these calls. Steve, you and I were talking in preparation for this podcast, and there’s an article I wrote years ago where I said stop selling and start squeezing. What I meant through the essence of the article was that there’s a zipper on a client’s chest, we need to unzip that zipper and squeeze their heart more in, and keep the products and services in our back pocket. Our empathy meters right now need to be going through the roof.
I’ve always said the most fundamental of communication skillsets, acknowledging, clarifying, confirming deeper questions that we need to ask. But also as advisors we better be well prepared to answer the questions of, “What’s the value that I’m receiving from you right now?
What am I getting for these fees I’m still paying you? My accounts are down 20, 30% whatever, it is, changing. “Why should I stay with you right now? You’re firm and continue to pay you what I’m paying you?” I’m telling you from what I’m seeing, some advisors that we coach quite honestly, that are proud and plateaued, that just are on uneasy street, and all of a sudden this thing hit them like a two by four. Some of those advisors should probably be lowering their fees, and some of the superstars and the people who are really on their game probably would earn the right to raise their fees through a time like this, because their value is at its greatest amount.
Well, my sense is that if you have clients that are asking that question now, or expressing anything that reflects that question, that that should be a signal that they’re not doing what they need to be doing.
Yeah.
You shouldn’t ever have to justify that, right? I mean, even if your client starts to think that it means that you’re not on your game enough, right?
You’re not in your game Steve and Julie. But in the fundamental things, when we ask people to list all the things down, the value that you’re providing to your client before a pandemic. All right, so has any of that changed? I use this a series of questions and it’s framed like, “Did you consider?” I do this, and it’s funny, I’m in a classroom and I can see advisors taking a picture of this PowerPoint. I see, did you consider, are you helping clients control their emotions? Are you educating clients about opportunities and risks? Are you motivating them maybe to make difficult decisions? Are you talking through tradeoffs? Are you allowing clients to see the consequences under various scenarios, especially now with a pandemic?
Are you visualizing eventualities? Are you spotting the real risk of the possible blow ups that could hit a family’s finances with all the stuff going on right now? Are you helping people to know what they can comfortably spend? Are you taking responsibility that no one else wants to take? Are you explaining this situation in a different level? People just don’t want to hear that their accounts are down. This emotional connection, the squeezing of the heart, getting closer to what’s going on with their families, their parents, their kids. This has all changed. They just got to react. These empathy meters got to go up to a whole another level.
You’re making me think we’re going to be releasing some new research in the next couple of weeks with our investor research. We began to go down this path of looking at confidence, which you mentioned and the fact that we think about helping clients regain confidence during a crisis, and yet you can see in the data the impact of confidence on all aspects of the business, right? It was ever those. The more confident … And we have sort of an index that we use, but the more confident the client, the more their net promoter, their satisfaction, their referrals, their share of wallet, like all of those outcomes really strongly tied to that. I think this is teasing out something that we’re going to have to take a harder look at. Would you agree with that?
Yeah, totally. Julie. We actually use the terminology of having justified confidence.
Oh, that’s an … I like that. Yeah.
It’s another way to look at it. In some of our courses, in some of our teaching, it’s like people throw the word integrity around all the time, right? I’m looking for provable integrity or justified confidence, things like this that you could put your hand on a table or, hit a board with something and elevate, raise the volume in a different way where people can feel they’re being taken care of. I believe that would build off of your studies as well.
Yeah, you’re right. There’s a level of confidence that might more accurately be described as delusion. But look, hey, we want to dig into these principles. I have to say that as a business owner, it was like you were catching what was in my mind in the middle of the night when I was staring at the ceiling, so thank you for that. There’s 10 of them. We could go into so much depth. Let me ask you, which do you think of those principles are sort of the most important for us to talk about? Cause I’d love to start there.
Well, it’s interesting, you both know my work well. People ask me that when we do our discover your value, our value ladder program, there’s seven questions. Who are you? What do you do? Why do you do it? How do you do it? They say, “Leo, which one of these seven is the most important?” I said, “Well, they’re all important. They’re seamlessly connected. But I took your question to heart and I looked through all the 10 things that I wrote and the three that jump out at me continually Julie and Steve, are the first one about putting your oxygen mask on.
The fourth one around staying close, and the ninth one about keep challenging your thinking in your teams. Those ones stand out to me still quite a bit. I know you wanted to ask a question on the-
I did.
… the oxygen mask and I can go from there for you.
Yeah, please do. Because I think that’s a… It’s such a critical place to start, so why don’t you talk, talk us through that.
Well the issue of the oxygen mask, when I tell people. I said, “Think of the last flight that you were on, right?” There’s usually a moment before that flight takes off, right, that airplane flight attendant will say something to the effect of, “Ladies and gentlemen, can I have your attention please? And they start doing the demonstration of putting an oxygen mask on.” Most of the time you’re on the phone, you’re starting up your iPad, you’re opening up your book, you’re not paying any attention. The oxygen mask is why? Is because if you don’t put yours on, quite honestly, if you’ve got a kid next to you or your spouse or significant other or whoever might be there, you can’t take care of anybody else unless you take care of yourself first. That’s become a life metaphor for me and literally I can show you there’s an oxygen mask on the other side of my desk here. I look at it every time I walk into my office.
I saw that picture Leo. I’m wondering how you got that.
Yeah, well that’s-
I wasn’t sure if it was a metaphor or a medical need. I didn’t want to ask.
It’s a metaphor but there was an actual need once, and once you have to put it on, you’ll never forget it. It is interesting without spending too much podcast time here on 9/11 of all days. But in 2014 I’m on a Jet Blue flight from Orlando and I’m ready to get home. I’m tired. I delivered a keynote down in Florida, and it’s raining misty out, about seven o’clock at night on this Jet Blue flight and we take off, and I got Al Pacino and Scarface on my phones next to me in the emergency row, and this flight attendant goes up front panicked, and all of a sudden the air mask or the oxygen master deployed. And a very frantic person, we lost air compression at 27,000 feet. I’d never had been… I had been on two other emergency landings or flights.
This one scared me the most because when you have a flight that is descending now, and you have a mask on, you get a whole different life metaphor of what I’m talking about putting your oxygen mask on.
I’ll bet.
Yeah.
This happens to me thinking about do I call my wife and my kids looking out the window, it was a controlled descent. But I’m telling you, putting your mask on makes you think about your daily routine. I have always asked myself, “What are my best days?” Steve or Julie, if I were to call you up and say, what’s an ideal day for you? How does it start? It always, for me, putting my oxygen mask on is when I’m taking care of myself first, and it’s been a mixture of silence, and mindfulness, and visualization, and assessing my prayers. But I’ve always put Leo first.
I’m challenging advisors to put themselves first. It usually is a some sort of workout or reading, or writing, or calling someone in, in practicing what I preach about staying close. I like to call somebody on my top 100 list, then I’m ready to go. Then I’m ready to attack. my, my serving my clients, checking my emails, seeing what I have to respond to in a business front. But that first 60 to 90 minutes, sometimes a couple hours. When I do that, putting my oxygen mask on, and there should be no substitute during this pandemic, during this crisis right now. And right now we get up and it… Doesn’t it feel like Groundhog’s day?
Oh my goodness.
My son in law was out in Arizona about a year ago and I remember his line to me because we’re going golfing in the next morning. He says, “I can’t wait to get up tomorrow morning.” I think right now most advisors, it’s Groundhog’s day. It’s like, “Oh god. Here we go again. What am I going to do today?” It’s the same old, same old. I think that’s why you got to put the mask on every day.
Well especially, at the beginning of this, when the market dropped a lot and if it happens again, that Groundhog day where you’ve just got frantic clients and you’ve got really concerned clients, and it’s phone call after phone call. Not only should they continue to do it, but, Leo, to your point, if they don’t, if they haven’t had that as a practice to start that now and to start looking out for themselves first thing in the morning. Cause you’re right, it will color every conversation they have through the day after that.
Absolutely.
But one of the things that you talk about is once you’ve done that, you’ve enabled yourself to better stay close, and that was one of the other principles you brought up. Tell us a little bit more about that. We’re in this quarantine state, we can’t get out and see people, people can’t come to see us. Tell us a little bit more about what you mean by stay close?
Well, stay close is just one of my life concepts. Everybody that knows me knows that I usually end a phone conversation, an email, a text with those two words, stay close. It’s just one of my life values that I have imparted to other people, and many people start to throw it back at me. Leo stay close. It’s just one of those things just to keep me in your thought pattern, keeping me on your shelf space. Let me know what’s going on in your life. That’s what I mean by the stay close metaphor, Steve, it’s just never left me.
Excellent. Any specific, any more specific suggestions on what advisors can do to stay close with their clients? But then also do you mean other things by that or are there other things or other people we should stay close to as we go through this?
Well I think you’ve got to stay close to your teams. That was one of the questions you asked me here about being sensitive to the needs of your team and staying close with your team, because we’re working remotely right now right? Here are three of us here in Toronto, New York and Scottsdale, Arizona and this call it’s pretty similar to the way a lot of teams are working, but in their different homes, in their suburbs or communities and wherever they might be. So we’ve always been very committed and disciplined to a regular 10 o’clock governance meeting on a Monday morning, unless there’s a client priority that’s taking shape that we’ve had to be out of the office.
I’m just so big on… I said the word earlier in the podcast about over-communicating and it’s not just with clients, but it’s with your team members. There’s a series of emotional issues that I use in my coaching and training, and there’s seven of them. I say people have challenges, people have circumstances going on in their life right now. There are concerns that people have. There are things that are frustrating people. There are things that people need. There are problems that exist and opportunities that are present. And our team members, all these emotional issues. When you unzipped the zipper on a team members chest as well as squeeze their heart, they got all these issues going on right now. There’s babies crying in the background. There’s people working at their dining room tables right now. There are technology challenges. The internet doesn’t work in this room in my house. The over-communication challenge, trying to manage through this new normal, and I’m still trying to figure this out for myself.
How can we best serve our clients? What else can we do? I believe there’s a lot of advisors and I want to give a big high five, a virtual high five to those many advisors that I know that are out there, that are absolutely superstars, truly extraordinary individuals that are doing phenomenal things right now, reaching out to their clients. But there’s a lot of people, Julie, you know this from your surveys and things that were just … Some people were just unfortunately proud and plateaued, and a little bit too comfortable I believe. Life in business I believe became easy for a lot of people in this thing hit them, big time. Are they doing enough now from their clients to… So their clients aren’t going to pull the trigger on them right now.
These are all some of the things that I’ve seen out there too, the whole staying close. It’s a life metaphor and I can’t emphasize it any more than that.
As you’re talking it’s putting me in mind of two of the other principals, so let me know where you’d like to go on this. One is you’ve been talking about team, and I know you talk about challenging yourself and challenging your team. But at the other thing you talk about is being willing to innovate and improvise, which I think is a really kind of interesting thing to talk about these days as the world change. But I mean maybe you can touch on both of those, because it feels like you’re kind of chatting about both of those things right now.
Yeah. I’m going to read you something here. One of my best friends, very senior C Suite level leader, well known global financial service firm, seven figure earner in his day. I would describe him as sophisticated, intelligent, intense, competitive, a real critical thinker. He has high expectations, pays a lot of money to his advisor and expects a lot of value in return. I was asking him some questions, no different than your surveying clients, the both of you. These are his exact words. All right, so for those advisors listening in, here’s a client. This isn’t Leo, this is a client potentially. He says, “I’m frankly not very high in the entire industry of wealth advisors at this moment in time. They’re mostly using very lazy old models and post event logic to remedy or bring calm to the scenario. Sure the market someday will rebound, but if all they do is tell you to ride the storm out without better predictors and global understanding, they’re worthless.
They should be asking some very deep questions of themselves in the industry at this very moment in time. We will experience more moments like this for sure. Disease, climate war, biological warfare, resource shortages, et cetera. That will be ours in the next gen generation reality I’m afraid of,” was his exact words to me. It’s interesting when you look at these scenarios that are occurring and this feedback. I’m saying to innovate and to improvise, you just need to have meaningful conversations with clients. You need to do the hard work. I believe advisers need to read more, not just from the US not just to listen to CNN or Fox in the US or whatever the folks are listening to in Canada these days, but to become more global, to be more intellectually curious.
“I have an opinion. What do you think?” This is what a lot of sophisticated folks are looking for. Not just relying on the chief economist or the chief investment officers for the firm, or we have a webinar, you might want to tune in. But no, no, no, what do you think yourself? Becoming more intellectual yourself and bringing in more critical thinking. Maybe adding more expertise Julie and Steve to their practices going forward. How do they elevate their value? Maybe more emphasis on elder care or the health and wealth integration, or business transitioning, or being less robotic or mechanical, and mastering virtual communications and platforms. Maybe you just got to repaint and do something to repurpose or refresh yourself.
But I believe they have to look in the mirror and ask themselves if they are elevating their game and not just relying on headquarters and other people to be the talking heads for themselves, but to extend their innovativeness and improvisational skills by challenging themselves to up their game at new levels of reading and intellectual curiosity, and things that would just make themselves feel differently and more valuable to the people that they serve.
You covered a lot of stuff in there, Leo, and one of the things that I want to pull out because I think it’s so important is, is having conversations with clients about more than just stay the course. If this lasts any length of time and all you can do is to say, “Just stick with it, stick with it.” Your clients are going to end up losing confidence because that’s not guidance, right? That’s… We hear this from advisory boards all the time, is they’re looking for… What are you looking out for? What are you anticipating? What would cause you to take action? Know that you’re doing more than what you… Just like you said, more than just spewing the company line.
That you’re actively engaged in something and are providing active advice all the way through this. Even just limited to their, to their portfolios. We’ve got a few minutes left and I wanted to make sure that I asked about this, because I think this too is a really important principle that you wrote about, and that is that you talk about the importance of serving not selling. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you mean by that and how you see that playing out in these relationships?
Yeah. I just believe that you need to be sensitive to people’s investment portfolios, but there’s a big, but here. But I believe you need to be even more sensitive today to people, their families, their kids, their parents, their careers. This thing, this pandemic is affecting the way everybody’s thinking today. I was watching or read an article about Chris Cuomo who does Cuomo prime time from CNN news and he’s fighting a coronavirus right now in his home quarantined in his basement, in his home, in the New York city vicinity to do this. But what’s happening is here’s a guy making millions of dollars a year that’s going through some renewed life introspection based on this health crisis and how it’s affecting him, and not sure that he wants to continue to do what he’s continuing, what he’s been doing, how he’s been making his money.
It’s forcing him to mostly to revisit and squeeze his own heart to rethink his own purpose, to the next five to 10 years. Our own legacies, our own day to day happiness and things like this. Advisors serving clients have to elevate the game that their clients, business owners, many that have been shut down stuttering halts to their businesses. Some are getting by. Some have had a fortune but are worried about their retirement years. They’re all… Everybody’s thinking about this. Their clients to the advisors themselves of revisiting. That’s why when I talk about that empathy meter and squeezing the hearts, and getting closer to what… How are you really feeling? What else is going on? It’s beyond just the investments sleeve of the wealth management mandate. There are other things relative to the lives they want to lead.
How this is affecting those, their life planning, those lifestyles and things, not just for the clients but for the advisors as well. Serving people, I believe just adding greater sensitivity to, how is this affecting your thinking about the next year to three to five years or 10 years. Does this change your thinking about the things that we put in your plan about things that you wanted to do or not do? I can tell you when that 9/11 2014 flight was going down and I was praying, looking out the window, I wasn’t thinking about… It was funny because I’ve asked people this in a new program we launched out here. I said, the thing that came to my mind was, was there anything that I didn’t do that I always wanted to do? Right. It wasn’t what you… Because I knew I was a good father.
I’m going to be married for 42 years and I looked at my life and I said, “You know what? I’ve lived a really great life. I’m proud. I’ve got a wonderful relationship with my wife, my four kids, soon to be five grandchildren later this year. I’m touching all the bases and feeling like there’s nothing… I really don’t have many regrets, but it was like, was there anything I always wanted to do but didn’t do? And I believe that type of question through this health crisis is getting people to think about, “Can I still do what I want to do? And is there anything that maybe I should be doing, could be doing that I need to be pulling the trigger on sooner than later?”
I love all of what you’re saying and we’re going to make sure people have access to all of this report so that they can see all of the principals. But just as you’ve been talking, it’s really reinforcing this need I think we have to be just… Start by being honest with ourselves. That’s what I found this particular report really helpful, because it asks some tough questions. It kind of causes you to think. I’m hoping advisers can take this and find somewhere quiet with a cup of tea in your house where your family is not and really start to think about this, and get very intentional. It’s easy to say, “Of course I serve. Of course I serve.” But to really tease that apart and think about what it means. Really great stuff. We’re going to make some of these available, but Leo where would people learn more about you and the work that you’re doing, and really just stay in touch with all of these great insights?
Well, I would just send them to our website pusatericonsulting.com P-U-S-A-T-E-R-I. Google my name, whatever. You’ll get into our website to do this. We’re just a quick phone call away. I just want to end Julie with a quick thought here to tell people to put their oxygen mask on where I started with that first principle. Take care of yourself, be more mindful, be more curious, ask deeper questions. This isn’t rocket science. They’re important questions to ask. Again, what can you control today? What are your priorities to improve yourself? How can you better attend to your families and better serve your clients, and be there for your friends?
There are seven affirmations. I’ve been saying these for years. This hit me in 1997 and there’s elements of these and if you don’t have them, the people listening to this… And I can tell you there are seven things in my mind, and it’s funny, I’ve always… I used to keep these to myself, then when I started sharing them, people say, “Well, what was that third one, Leo?” It starts with as simple as do good things first. Second, this is your time, right? The third one, and I always tell them, I said just to be Leo, who I am, living my value system in things. The fourth was to be in the moment. There’s a moment right now that we’re experiencing.
The fifth one is to trust your process, but the open minded to this innovativeness and improvisation that we need to. There’s one here about just having fun, finding fun through this and just fighting… I’m finding ways to still try to laugh and to smile through this. The last one is just to be and act like the people we always want it to become. In my case, there are certain things I remind myself of being a good husband, and a dad, and a grandfather, and a good person, a good friend, and someone that someday somebody would say that, “Here’s the guy that lived a good life to do this.”
I would encourage people to write down the things that are important to them, and the more you start to live to these core values that you have everyday and things that are important to you, I believe things will manifest. Run with the principles. I thank the both of you for your time today and your support of our work and your friendship. Thank you very much.
Oh, thank you.
Yeah. Well thank you Leo and thank you for your friendship and thanks for including us in sharing that report. When you sent it around it meant a lot to me. I know it meant a lot to Julie and I know it will mean a lot to all of our listeners, so thanks for joining us today. We will make sure that we put a link to your site in the show notes, so if anyone wants to find that paper, you can come to the Becoming Referable website and we’ll link you over to Leo’s site. Leo, thanks so much for spending time with us today.
Thank you folks. Appreciate it.
Hi, it’s Julie again. It was great to have you with us on Becoming Referable . If you like what you’ve been hearing, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes. It really does help. You can get all the links, show notes, and other tidbits from these episodes at becomingreferable.com. You can also get our free report, Three Referral Myths That Limit Your Growth and connect with our blogs and other resources. Thanks so much for joining us.