Participants:
Steve Wershing
Julie Littlechild
Tom Deans
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Welcome to Becoming Referable, the podcast that helps you become the kind of advisor people can’t help talking about. I’m Julie Littlechild, and today Steve and I are speaking with Dr. Tom Deans. Now Tom, I think, brings some really great perspective on how advisors can deliver value to clients, and it’s particularly relevant in the current environment. And just by way of background, and there’s a lot more that we’ll get into, Tom is the author of Every Family’s Business, which was rated by the New York Times as one of the top 10 books that business owners should read. But we’re actually going to focus more on the sequel, Willing Wisdom, which answers a really critical question for all of us, and that is: How prepared is your family to inherit?
I’m sure you’ve had this kind of conversation with your clients. But on the basis of the work that Tom has done, he created a tool to help advisors called the willing wisdom index. And I can tell you I used the tool, and it really did help me to see some gaps in my own planning, and I thought I was pretty well prepared. So with that, let’s get straight to the conversation with Tom. Well, Tom, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Yeah. Welcome, Tom.
Great to be here.
Well, I am excited to talk to you. In fact, I have wanted to get you on the podcast for quite some time. And this may make us look really smart, but what you have to say is probably more pertinent now than it has ever been in the past, so looking forward to that. But let me just ask if I could start us off by getting your description of the work that you’re doing with advisors and just to give them some context.
Yeah. It is a great place to start. I was a CEO of a large family business for eight years. And then had an unsolicited offer, and we sold. We sold that family business. And I realized that is something that our family had done three previous times. And in fact, we had never actually gifted an operating business to our kids. And so I wrote that book. I wrote that book 12 years ago. And that book is called Every Family’s Business. That turned into a professional speaking career, which led to the second book, the sequel, which is really going to make up I think the bulk of our conversation today.
It is a very different book on estate planning. It is not a technical book. It’s actually a book that helps families. It offers seven questions to help families start what is clearly an improbable, difficult conversation to have, which is: How are we going to leave the wealth that we’ve created? When are we going to transition? Are we going to do what most people do and just leave it all to the very end, and then the floodgates open? Are we going to prepare our heirs? Are we going to have transparency in our estate plans? Or are we going to do what 125 million Americans are going to do, which is, and I’ll give you a hint.
Nothing.
Zippo.
Got it. I got it right.
125 million Americans do not have a will. It is insane, especially in the context that we’re having this conversation, where I’m in the middle of two weeks of self isolation with this COVID-19. And long after this is recorded and listened, maybe years down the road, that is an important point to make because I think it finally has taken a global pandemic for people to take estate planning seriously. There are families right now in self isolation, and they know that they don’t have a will. If they don’t have a will, they do not have a power of attorney and they do not have a healthcare directive, which means if they get COVID-19, there is no legal ability for their families to advocate for them, no one to step in and say, “This is what my parents wanted.” Resuscitate, do not resuscitate, nothing. I would have as much status at a hospital as a family member if these documents are missing in the estate plan.
So I think it’s just your timing is extraordinary, the fact that you’re going to share this with advisors who are in a unique position to get their clients moving, moving. This feels really ancillary to the business of picking stocks, but I’m telling you it is really related to the whole exercise of financial planning.
And even beyond the healthcare proxy is that power of attorney. So if you have one of those situations where the breadwinner has most of the assets, and the breadwinner is the one who gets sick, the community spouse may not even be able to pay the bills.
Well, absolutely. If that business owner is on a ventilator, you explain to me who has got the authority to continue to write checks and keep the company afloat.
Exactly.
I mean, if you’re a business owner and you don’t have a will, you don’t have a power of attorney. I haven’t met anyone who’s got power of attorney who doesn’t have a will. I mean, you go in for the will and you pop out of the attorney’s office with those two bonus documents. So if you’re a business owner and you don’t have a will, you don’t have a business succession plan, you don’t have a power of attorney, that is insane. That is absolutely insane. So for advisors who are looking to change the channel when it comes to, I don’t know, talking to their clients about really relevant and timely matters, you could not pick a more important time to have this conversation.
Well, and I think that’s right. What’s interesting is that your message, I think, and I’ll paraphrase, but tell me if I’m wrong, is that advisors really do need to think beyond investment returns and communicate about things that are important to clients. But I imagine that was your message before this. Right? I mean, this has just made it even more clear. Is that fair?
Well, absolutely. I mean, I was just shocked. I probably wrote my books out of order. I probably should’ve wrote the estate planning book first. I just assumed that if you’re a business owner, and particularly if you’re an aging business owner, and you’ve got the majority of your wealth wrapped up in one liquid stock called family co, and that you have a will, that an advisor has worked with you to get the basics in place. And I was absolutely shocked. As a speaker, I was getting questions at conventions, whether it was auto dealer conventions, it didn’t matter. The same questions kept on popping up. What should I do? How should I write a will? Is fair equal? Is equal fair? Should I leave the shares of my operating business to my kids in equal amounts? Should I … Basic, basic.
And I thought, “Who is advising these business owners? Where is the advice not flowing?” And I thought, “I’ve got to write this book.” And that’s really where really gave birth to Willing Wisdom. It is a book that was long overdue. It had never been written. Everything is technical. Everything is tax driven. That is not the hangup.
And I think I’d love you to maybe share bit more about the role advisors can play in this because I think to some extent, it’s easy to say as an advisor, “Have you got a will? If you don’t, you should really have one.” And then off you go to your lawyer, and you get it. But I can tell you that my lawyer’s great, and he did the right technical things. But he did not guide me through these conversations. And is that the role that you think advisors can truly play?
Well, absolutely. Really, what I’m saying in the book, I mean, the title is Willing Wisdom, but it’s not how to write necessarily a wise will. In fact, what I’m saying is how we transition our wealth is actually as important, if not more important, than the amount or what we transition. We are incredibly careless in how we are preparing the next generation to receive our life’s work. And that’s what the book is about. It is really a book about how to give advisors the competence to hold family meetings for their clients. They can’t do this for all their clients. But I tell advisors all the time, “If you are not building a fence around your 10, 12 most important clients by holding a family meeting, by offering to facilitate a family meeting to bring everyone together in one room to talk about the most predictable thing in life, which is the transition of wealth, someone else will.” Some other smart, clever, strategic, tactically brilliant advisor is going to find a way to make that offering to a high net worth client or ultra high net worth client.
Things are changing. I mean, if you’re building an advisory practice on the basis of I can pick stocks better than the guy down the road, dream on. Clients, especially wealthy clients, I have wised up to that one. No one believes it anyway. So what are you adding to the client relationship that is unique? What’s your unique value proposition. And I think estate planning and the offering of family facilitated meetings to prepare for the intergenerational transition of wealth, that two billion that is transitioning every single day, every day. And we know that if a business owner is not having family meetings, that most of that wealth is going to transition chaotically. Half of it will transition without a will, thrusting children into business together as equal business partners in the family business, for example, absolute chaos.
And so what is happening? Those kids are lawyering up and they’re fighting over family assets. And the lawyers are mopping the floor. They’re mopping the floor with families who are not working with advisors to get out in front of this greatest wealth transfer in the history of the planet.
Tom, can we talk about those meetings for just a second? Because I’ve worked a lot of advisors who, they do talk with their advisors about estate planning, and they do talk about the values they want to pass along, and not just the taxes and number of it. But quite a few of those folks, when the issue or the matter of a family meeting comes up, they say, “Oh, no, no, no, no.” One reason or another, they don’t pursue that. So if an advisor who’s in that situation, how would you suggest that they … What would be the first couple steps you would take to being able to hold those kinds of meetings? Or where can people go? What of your stuff describes how to do that kind of thing?
Yeah. So first of all, I have a digital tool called The Willing Wisdom Index. It’s simply a link that an advisor would share with a client. And they invest eight minutes and they answer a series of questions on a checklist. That produces a 20 page report that produces some action items. And the advisor can then work with that client to say, “Okay. Look. One of these recommendations on your report is to have a family meeting. I’d like to help you do that. And let’s keep this meeting, the first meeting, small. Let’s just meet with yourself, your partner and your children. And let’s tackle maybe just one or two items, like, I don’t know. Who are we going to select as an executor?” What a great … You can have entire family meeting that lasts about an hour to two hours on one issue, a critical issue. Who do we select as an executor?
Instead of mom and dad coming into a family meeting and saying, “We’ve gathered you in this room today, and we are going to proclaim that this is our decision for our executor,” as opposed to a financial advisor organizing a family meeting with the two kids and mom and dad, and the advisor saying, “We want to organize your parents’ affairs. We want to help facilitate some family conversations. And they’d like to get together and ask you the question. What do you guys think? I mean, do you think one of you or both of you would like to be an executor, or co-executor? Or here’s the benefits of having a professional trustee perform that role. But let’s have a full and open and transparent conversation.”
Do you see the subtlety of that positioning of that one issue instead of a proclamation, an open conversation? Look, if there’s one really audacious idea in what I’m proposing, it’s that estate planning, we’ve been led to believe, is about answer the question: Who gets out stuff? That’s why 125 million people don’t have a will, because they’re like, “I’m not that excited about answering that question.” I’ll get to it later, I’ll get to it later. But you know what estate planning is also all about, those two other documents, power of attorney and that healthcare proxy, that healthcare directive, two documents that are very much about the living. When we can understand that estate planning is about the living, about really helping others serve us when we might have dementia, when we might be on a respirator because of COVID-19, when we’ve had these family conversations and said, “Listen, the people I’m going to leave my money to are the people that I’m also going to leave responsibility to give me great care when I’m no longer in control.”
Do you see how the conversation around healthcare and long-term care and late in life care is so intertwined with the division of our assets? It’s the same conversation. But if we’re not having the conversation about a will, we’re not having it about late in life care. It’s the same. So the really great advisors are understanding that and really serving their elderly clients by helping them answer a really terrifying question. Where will I live when I’m old? Who will take care of me when I can’t take care of myself? These are great gifts. And guess what happens, the next generation is so appreciative that someone stepped into this dark, awkward place in the client relationship to bring clarity and light, to shine a light on a difficult issue. Guess what happens, that 80% of inherited money that always moves to a new advisor because they didn’t do this, actually transition to the current advisor because they had the courage to tackle this issue.
It’s just smart business. Imagine you’re a financial advisor and you don’t have a copy of your client’s will. You don’t have a clue where the money is going. Imagine if you’ve helped start a conversation and work with a family to write wills up and down the generations, you know exactly how money will flow. I mean, it’s just smart. And I’ll tell you right now, half of advisors aren’t doing this because half of advisors don’t have a will. They’re no better equipped or better organized than their own clients. So imagine if you’re a financial advisor, you haven’t done your own work, where are you going to find that introspection and that confidence to have these difficult, awkward conversations with your best, most valuable clients? You’ve got to do your own work first. That’s what Willing Wisdom is.
They are challenging conversations. I was very much in the category of being quite out of date for some time with wills and powers of attorney and whatnot because I kept getting stuck. And I tell you the one thing that got me through it, and this is going to sound like an absolute blinding flash of the obvious, but was when my lawyer said, “Just write it for today. And if you update it every year, that’s okay.”
Love it.
That was the biggest thing for me because I kept thinking, “Well, the business is going to grow to X. And then who gets what?” And I said, “Well, no. Today what would you do?” I’d say, “I’d give it all to the kids,” because-
That’s a good lawyer. You have a good lawyer.
It was a great … But I’ll tell you just real quickly. So this Willing Wisdom Index Checklist, if I’m getting the name correct, I went through the process, and we’ll make sure we include links. And feeling with my chest all puffed up thinking I’ve got a big long set of documents now that I paid a lot of money for. And I had a lot of gaps, I’m just going to say. And it’s going to be different for everyone. But it was around communication largely. The people that I had identified didn’t even always know they’d been identified, never mind have a copy of some of this stuff.
I don’t know what your score was.
I think it was 50 something, which is-
I’ll tell you right now-
Just feels terrible.
You scored higher-
Okay. Good.
You scored higher than Prince. You scored higher than Aretha Franklin.
Well, fair point.
And you scored higher than four US presidents who died without a will, and two were lawyers.
That’s true. At least I had the will.
Don’t beat yourself. Exactly. You had a will. You had a power of attorney. So it’s not about getting 100 out of 100. It’s about getting a list of recommendations that guide you to have some really fascinating conversations with your own family, so that you can make major decisions before you visit your attorney, so that instead of your meeting being four hours-
Oh, I know.
It’s 30 minutes. Lawyers take instruction. And when you go into a lawyer’s office and you say, “Hey, Larry. I know you write wills all day long, so what do you think I should do?” The lawyer is sitting there going, “Oh, my God.”
Whatever you tell me to do.
I don’t know what’s going on in your family. You tell me. So they have these big, long, rambling conversations that are expensive. So one of the great value adds that advisors can give, frankly, are these kinds of the kind of clarity that helps people go in and have really meaningful, efficient conversations with their attorneys.
Yeah. Absolutely. It is a sensitive conversation too. I would rather have these conversations with my advisor than my lawyer anyway. They know more. And they’re awkward. I used to, I’ll say joke, but it wasn’t funny at all, that I think my father had his third heart attack and a triple bypass before he had a will in place. Now I come from deep working class roots. There was not a lot to distribute. Having said that, we were very uncomfortable asking him about it. That’s the reality. And I thought, “Here’s somebody in the industry, at least marginally smart.” And I needed somebody to guide me through that I think.
Right. So what I’m really trying to remind advisors is the place to start is not with, “Hey, Mom and Dad, can I have a copy of your will, which will tell me how much I get?” People are reluctant to do that. They don’t want to look like they’re grabbing for stuff. And they want to be respectful to the relationship. But when I can teach advisors to say to their clients, particularly their young clients, “Hey, Mom and Dad. I would love to have a copy of your power of attorney and your healthcare directive. When that moment comes, especially in these really unprecedented times, I want to be able to serve you. And you know what, here’s a copy of my power of attorney, healthcare directive. And here’s a copy of my will. Nothing says we die in order. I just want you to be prepared.”
And I think most parents reciprocate. They really do. Most people, I think when they really … That’s a wonderful, lovely moment for families to see, I don’t know, them using the promise of surplus capital and the trust around the disclosure of how money will flow in the fullness of time, that is a transformational moment in family dynamics.
And so Tom, we’re recording this in the midst of the COVID-19 crisis. And so we are interacting with clients differently because we can’t see them face to face. And people are worried about their portfolios, and if they were uncomfortable with the idea of thinking about death and estate planning, they’re probably outright freaked out about it now. How do we approach those conversations in this context?
I think there’s no better time for an advisor to overcome their own reluctance to face the obvious. I think, and we’ve provided template emails for our subscribers, our advisors who subscribe. They don’t even have to think about this stuff. We’ve written very gentle, very thoughtful emails that say, “Look, this is not business as usual. We have a duty, we have a duty to ourselves and our profession to make sure that we make it as easy as possible for you as a family to discuss these issues and prepare for these issues, and especially now in light of these circumstances.
From the advisor’s self interest, my goodness. If you’re an advisor and you’re taking trading instructions and you don’t have a copy of your client’s power of attorney, never mind COVID-19, we’ve got one in three Americans over the age of 65 presenting some symptoms of dementia, early symptoms, deep symptoms, and you’re taking trading instructions from someone you have no idea on how you should handle that situation when your radar is tripped, when you say, “My goodness. He doesn’t even recall that conversation we had yesterday,” what do you do? Who do you call?
I mean, this is really important stuff, whether we’re talking about COVID-19, being able to know how to respond to someone who is not well, helping families have these conversations. Don’t tell me families don’t have time to talk about this stuff now. We all have time. We’re all sitting at home. What a beautiful time to be introspective and really take stock and inventory of what really matters. And as much as we’re all bemoaning the state of our portfolios, we know that in the fullness of time, that will repair itself. The question is: How do we really tackle the more urgent issues, which is this is a big problem?
This is a scary pandemic. How do we make sure that our family is equipped to serve us? And so advisors are sharing some good links right now about lawyers who can actually work and draft wills remotely and execute those wills remotely. Those things are happening. It’s going to be really difficult right now in the middle of this self isolation for lawyers just to pop by the house and witness the signing of wills. And it’s different in every jurisdiction, but this is really forcing the legal industry to really make changes to the way in which they’re drafting wills and executing wills, quickly, under very difficult circumstances.
Yeah. And even as you talked about business owners, there may be amendment to your shareholders agreement that you … There are things I think I’m thinking about that we didn’t even think about when my partner and I put that together, where we’re documenting access and passwords and accounts. Boy, it’s amazing what we let slide.
Yeah. And even basic items that we reveal on the Willing Wisdom Index, the checklist, which is you have an executor, congratulations. Who’s your backup executor? What if something happens to your executor? Who’s your power of attorney? Does your power attorney, the person you named as your power of attorney, do they actually have a copy of the document? In other words, you’re unconscious, and-
Yeah. That was where I failed.
They don’t even know they’ve been named power of attorney and they don’t know where the document is. The very first question that a hospital administrator is going to ask is, “What’s your relationship to the patient? Do you have the power of attorney? Do you have a healthcare directive?” Listen, we have to get organized. And these are really great areas in the client advisor relationship that really doesn’t take a lot of time. But it does take a little bit of organization and diligence and care to help clients with this stuff. This is how you create sticky relationships. This is how you create sticky relationships, not just with a client, but with the client’s entire family, who feel like the advisor has their back.
It’s so true. We’ve been talking so much about leadership over the last couple of weeks in particular. And to me, I think that’s really what we’re talking about. This is one tangible way to be a leader because you’re walking into something that is uncomfortable, but you’re doing it anyway. Right? I mean, that’s the essence of some of this for me.
Yeah. I would agree with that. You know the great untold secret of some of the best performing advisors, I mean, the ones that really are exceptional at their work and make an extraordinary amount of money doing what they do, well, they do it. They do it one way and they’ve mastered a very simple idea. Wealth has always been about family. It’s always been about family. And the great advisors, when they see divorce, addiction, chaos, they don’t run. They don’t turtle. They move towards the chaos, and the resource it. The resource it. And I don’t know if I can teach that. I think the really extraordinary advisors probably don’t like me telling the secret, but they are really good at that stuff. They love chaos. They do.
Well, we all live with it. I had, speaking of families, I had a lovely conversation with mine last night because we were in advance of this call and thinking about estate. My son, who’s 10, was at the table. And so we’re chatting about wills, and he kept asking about [inaudible 00:25:43]. And so he had this great question at the end, which I thought was lovely. He said, “So I get the house, right?” That was basically, that was his entire concern, so it was a beautiful family moment, I’ve got to tell you. Tom, I wanted to just pivot slightly because Steve and I have been talking to people, as well as our own businesses, and talking about how we have all had to adapt and change. I believe that a big part of the work you’ve been doing is actually delivering live events on behalf of advisors. What are you seeing in terms of this new way of doing business? What are you recommending that advisors do to replace that kind of activity right now?
Well, I can tell you that I’m earning far less air miles, frequent flyer miles.
As am I.
Yeah, right. That makes three of us.
I’m not used to it. How long does this last? I don’t know. What I can tell you is that people are really missing social contact. In fact, my fall bookings are out of control. I just think that once we come out of this, and we will, we will come out with maybe different ways of interacting socially, with social distancing maybe being more part of the norm. But look, people love to get together. We are social animals. In the meantime, I think Zoom conference calls, digital tools that help advisors engage with their clients, tools like the Willing Wisdom Index, and others like it, I think that’s what we’re going to see.
I mean, we have to stay present and in the forefront of those relationships. But at the end of the day, it’s just going to be a very difficult adjustment for a lot of business owners. But it is also a poignant reminder that business owners, who left the majority of their wealth in their operating business and the retained earnings, I think we’re going to come out of this with a very, very big lesson for those folks. And they will understand that those advisors who have been preaching, especially to elderly business owners in their 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s, that as they get older, they should get that equity out of the business and properly invest it across a number of different asset classes. I think, wow, could we learn that lesson any more, a more difficult than the way we have now? So I think coming out of this, there’s a lot of wealth, trillions, $10 trillion sitting in operating businesses that I think will be deployed into the markets from a risk management point of view after this, after the dust settles.
Yeah, yeah. It’s changing every day. Isn’t it?
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I think there’s never been a better time to be a financial advisor. Probably doesn’t feel like that right now. But my goodness, coming out the other end of this, the do it yourself-ers, you just know they’re having a hard time.
Well, absolutely. This is where we add value. Right? This is where we … I said it in a blog post a few weeks ago. No client ever said, “Thank you for being there and helping coach us through that bull market.”
Exactly.
So as we’re coming up on time, but before we ask you about where people can find you, Tom. Given what’s going on now, what would be the top two or three things you would suggest advisors do right now?
The first thing I would do is I would take The Willing Wisdom Index Checklist. If they contact me, they can get a free demo. They can see the gaps in their own estate plan. That’s the very first step in building confidence to have this conversation with your best clients. They are desperate for this conversation. There are clients that don’t even know how much money the advisor made them last year. They’ve got more money than they can spend, even in this chaos. What they don’t have is a will. What they don’t have is clarity and when they should start to transition wealth with their children. How much should they leave to charity? How much is too much? Those are the places that people need help. Those are great places to differentiate, for advisors to differentiate their offering. That would be the first thing.
Second thing is to share with their clients their own report. Share with them the fact that even advisors have work to do. It’s not about being perfect. Be human. I don’t want some perfectly buttoned down advisor telling me how to run my estate. What I want is the advisor to say, “You know what, I’ve got my own work to do. This is not … I had my first family meeting last year, or two years ago, or last month. And you know what, it was tricky, but man, was it good. I feel great that I just started.” So that would be the second thing. Have your own family meeting. Talk about what you experienced. Make yourself real and accessible to your clients, your best clients.
And then the third thing is take care of yourself. Eat well. Wash your hands, social distancing. Be good to yourself, exercise, because we are going to come out of this. And I think we’re going to come out of this I think really with some profound lessons about our greatest assets being not financial, but our family relationships. People are taking stock now like never before that our family, our relationships, our real legacy. It’s not our money. It’s not our business. It is our family. It is our relationships. We’re going to go off into the future, that next generation’s going off and start their own businesses and go off and live interesting and purposeful lives. That is going to be informed by the conversations that are taking place in living rooms all around the country, right now in the middle of this crisis.
Yeah. Those are great recommendations and a great place to wrap this up. So Tom, where can people find the index and where can they learn more about you?
Best thing to do is, listen, I’m an old fashioned guy. I’m going to give them my phone number. I’m old school.
Haven’t heard that in a while.
Yeah. 519-938-2069. I answer my own phone. That’s my direct line. But before you do that, go to my website, willingwisdom.com. That’s the title of my book. Willingwisdom.com. You’ll be able to read up on the index. You’ll see what the book is about. It’s a very different estate planning book. You’ll see my other book is listed there, Every Family’s Business, listed by the New York Times as one of the top 10 books for business owners. 1.3 million copies, they’re both great books. They’re short. They’re easy to read and the perfect books to give to clients. So yeah, looking forward to the phone calls from your advisors. Yeah, let’s go change some lives. Great opportunity to do it.
Thanks so much, Tom. Appreciate it.
Thank you, Tom.
Thanks for having me.
Hey, folks. Steve again. Thanks for joining us on Becoming Referable. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes. It really helps. You can get all the links, show notes, and other tidbits from these episodes at becomingreferrable.com. You can also get our free report, Three Referral Myths That Limit Your Growth, and connect with our blogs and other resources. So until next time, so long.